The SEO Podcast: Page 2 Podcast Hosted by Jon Clark & Joe DeVita

Hosted by Jon Clark, this is a podcast about the people of SEO, their stories, and what life as an SEO is really like. Featuring some of the industry's best and brightest minds, we share our experiences (both good and bad), talk about successes and failures, share strategic and tactical knowledge, and much more.

The SEO Podcast: Page 2 Podcast Hosted by Jon Clark & Joe DeVita is a business podcast hosted by Jon Clark, Joe DeVita, with 121 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80. PitchCentric scores this show on Booking Probability, Listen Score, and live audience signals refreshed every 24 hours.

Jon Clark, Joe DeVita hosts The SEO Podcast: Page 2 Podcast Hosted by Jon Clark & Joe DeVita, a business show with 121 episodes published.

Our AI reads these to draft pitches. Use them as grounding for a pitch that cites a real guest and a specific topic.

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  Episode #136

  Why Video Is Now Table Stakes for SEO with Cindy Krum

  Sep 14, 202650 minS6

  https://page2pod.com - Why social and video now decide whether your brand makes it into AI Overviews — and why your own website is the last place to optimize. Cindy Krum, founder and CEO of MobileMoxie, argues that video has moved from a digital marketing must to an SEO must. Her case: LLMs are consensus machines. They don't care that your site says you're the best at something — they're aggregating what social, reviews, publishers, creators, and video say about you. If the web can't agree on what your brand is for, you haven't done the work. She also walks through why a long-form video with real chapters behaves like a set of separate blog posts, each section eligible to answer a different question, and why short-form vertical video still matters for discovery even though it isn't showing up in AI Overviews yet. Plus: entity-first indexing, query fan-out, People Also Ask as the testing ground for AI Overview inclusion, and where Google Discover, Merchant Center, and TikTok Shop collide. In This Episode - Why Google keeps pulling YouTube into AI Overviews - Do engagement metrics matter for getting cited by AI? - Scripting video so the transcript contains the actual search phrase - Turning your help center and FAQ pages into video answers - Where vertical video ranks today — and where it doesn't - What should a video chapter structure actually look like? - Entity-first indexing, MUM, and query fan-out, explained plainly - Building an entity plus its modifiers into an AEO prompt set - Who owns SEO when discovery happens on social and Reddit If search has become a journey that moves across platforms, this is a practical map of where to spend your effort first. Subscribe for weekly conversations with the practitioners shaping SEO, AEO, and GEO. Drop a comment: at your company, who actually owns social video — the SEO team or the social team? And has that changed in the last year? Find Cindy Krum ✅ MobileMoxie → https://mobilemoxie.com ✅ Cindy on X → https://x.com/suzzicks ✅ Cindy on LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/cindykrum #### Sponsored by Moving Traffic Media → https://www.movingtrafficmedia.com Follow the Page 2 Podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Youtube → https://www.youtube.com/@thepage2podcast922 ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/company/page2podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Facebook → https://www.facebook.com/ThePage2Podcast/ ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/page2pod ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Tiktok → https://www.tiktok.com/@jonleeclark Follow Jon Clark ✅ Jon Clark Official Site → https://jonclark.co ✅ Jon Clark on Twitter → https://x.com/jonlclark ✅ Jon Clark on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlclark Chapters 0:00 Search Beyond the Website 2:16 Cindy Krum and MobileMoxie 5:51 Why Google Cares About Video 8:49 How Social Drives Brand-First Search 11:47 Scripting Video for Keywords 13:56 Turning Support Content Into Video 15:42 Vertical Video and AI Overviews 17:40 How Should You Structure Chapters? 20:12 Sponsor: Moving Traffic Media 20:56 AEO as a Branding Channel 24:15 Journeys, Micro-Moments, and MUM 26:53 Entity-First Indexing Explained 31:44 People Also Ask as Query Fan-Out 33:53 Merchant Center, Discover, TikTok Shop 38:45 Where to Focus for AI Overviews 40:02 Who Owns SEO Now? 44:14 Rapid Fire and Career Advice ️ Tools & Resources Mentioned - OtterlyAI (Thomas Peham, previous episode) → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJsQ2qJho-M - All About Fraggles → https://moz.com/blog/fraggles - Google MUM (Multitask Unified Model) → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQDRL8MwVj0 - See Cindy at the Amaze Conference → https://amazeconference.com/

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  Episode #135

  ChatGPT Cites Publishers With Deals 48% More with Thomas Peham

  Sep 7, 202651 minS6

  https://page2pod.com - Publishers with OpenAI deals get cited 48% more by ChatGPT. Thomas Peham of Otterly.AI on what AI search citation testing actually shows. Most AI search advice is theory. Thomas Peham, CEO and co-founder of Otterly.AI, runs a team with two full-time GEO researchers whose only job is to test it. Across millions of citations from ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, and Google AI Overviews, a consistent picture emerges: corporate and brand websites supply roughly 40–60% of all citations, niche and trade media outperformed mainstream publishers in 16 of 17 US industries studied, and publishers holding licensing deals with OpenAI pick up about 48% more ChatGPT citations than those without. The uncomfortable findings are here too. Schema markup lifted Google organic and AI Overviews visibility but did nothing measurable on ChatGPT. Crawl data shows almost no activity on llms.txt files, while sitemaps get hit constantly. A fictional agency with no clients and no history got recommended by ChatGPT purely by earning mentions in the articles ChatGPT was already citing. And 25% of the URLs ChatGPT cites are dead links. Thomas also shares Otterly.AI's own Claude numbers, which should make anyone in B2B re-examine their analytics: Claude accounts for 0.1–0.2% of their website traffic, but 10.6% of net-new leads name it as where they first heard about the company. In This Episode - Why hiring dedicated GEO researchers became the marketing strategy - Does schema markup actually influence ChatGPT citations? - The llms.txt crawl data — and why sitemaps deserve the attention instead - Where AI citations come from: corporate sites, niche media, and publisher licensing deals - The fake London SEO agency experiment and what it exposes about off-page manipulation - Building brand sentiment through reviews, product content, and a central brand entity - Why YouTube long-form gets cited regardless of view count - What Claude's citation data reveals about B2B buying you can't see in analytics A practitioner's look at what's been tested, what held up, and what marketers should stop doing. Subscribe for new episodes with the people actually running the experiments in SEO, AEO, and GEO. Which finding would change your roadmap first — the schema results, the llms.txt crawl data, or the 48% licensing gap? Tell us in the comments. #### Sponsored by Moving Traffic Media → https://www.movingtrafficmedia.com Follow the Page 2 Podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Youtube → https://www.youtube.com/@thepage2podcast922 ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/company/page2podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Facebook → https://www.facebook.com/ThePage2Podcast/ ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/page2pod ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Tiktok → https://www.tiktok.com/@jonleeclark Follow Jon Clark ✅ Jon Clark on Twitter → https://x.com/jonlclark ✅ Jon Clark on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlclark ️ Tools & Resources Mentioned - Thomas Peham → https://thomas-peham.com/ - Thomas Peham on LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomaspeham/ - Thomas Peham on Twitter → https://twitter.com/tompeham - Thomas Peham on Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/tompeham/- Otterly.AI → https://otterly.ai - Otterly.AI's Agent Analytics → https://otterly.ai/blog/agent-analytics/ - Otterly.AI's Claude Citation Study: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/thomaspeham_our-claude-citation-study-shows-reddit-activity-7477977546194849792-gu8-/

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  Episode #134

  Entity SEO: How to Track Google's Confidence Score

  Aug 31, 202643 minS6

  https://page2pod.com - Entity SEO finally has a number: Lidia Infante on tracking Google's confidence in your brand with the Knowledge Graph API. Lidia Infante leads SEO and AI search at Pleo, following senior roles at SurveyMonkey, BigCommerce, and Sanity. She walks through the entity work most teams talk about but can't measure — querying the Google Knowledge Graph API for a confidence score, tracking that score in a Google Sheet, and using the movement to prove that third-party profile cleanup and consistent semantic triples actually changed something. That's the case for Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) and Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) work you can defend in a budget meeting. She also gets practical about the rest of the job: using LLMs to break a research library into individual tagged facts and place them inside existing content, correlating clicks on candidate brand terms against real signups to decide what your product should even be called, and why disagreeing with consensus may be the last cheap differentiator in a landscape full of AI-generated averages. Then the part nobody puts in a conference deck — legal approval layers, 16-market localization, and the business questions a growth leader has to answer before proposing any strategy at all. In This Episode - How do you track Google's confidence in your brand entity? - The CORE framework: consistency, optimization, repetition, engagement - Breaking research reports into tagged facts with Python and the Gemini API - What should your product actually be called? Correlating brand terms to signups - Why going against consensus still ranks when everything else is an average - Getting content through legal without six-month lead times - The questions a new growth leader should answer before proposing a strategy A rare conversation that connects entity theory to the org chart, the legal queue, and the P&L that decide whether any of it ships. Subscribe for new practitioner interviews on SEO, AEO, and GEO every week. Have you run your brand through the Knowledge Graph API yet? Tell us what came back — and which entity Google thinks you are. Find Lidia ✅ Lidia Infante on LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/lidiainfante/ ✅ Lidia Infante on X → https://x.com/LidiaInfanteM ✅ Lidia Infante on Bluesky → https://bsky.app/profile/lidia-infante.com ✅ Lidia's website → https://www.lidia-infante.com/ ✅ Lidia Infante on Youtube → https://www.youtube.com/@LidiaInfanteM/ ✅ Lidia Infante on Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/lidiainfantem/ #### Sponsored by Moving Traffic Media → https://www.movingtrafficmedia.com Follow the Page 2 Podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Youtube → https://www.youtube.com/@thepage2podcast922 ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/company/page2podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Facebook → https://www.facebook.com/ThePage2Podcast/ ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/page2pod ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Tiktok → https://www.tiktok.com/@jonleeclark Follow Jon Clark ✅ Jon Clark on Twitter → https://x.com/jonlclark ✅ Jon Clark on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlclark ️ Tools & Resources Mentioned - Lidia's Synthetic Research Pannel → https://www.linkedin.com/posts/lidiainfante_i-am-a-girl-with-a-claude-subscription-and-activity-7490867156474171392-xnRo/ - SEO and Brand Sitting in a Tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G → https://speakerdeck.com/lidiainfante/seo-and-brand-sitting-in-a-tree-k-i-s-s-i-n-g

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  Episode #133

  What Fan-Out Queries Reveal About AI Search with Malte Landwehr

  Aug 24, 202653 minS6

  https://page2pod.com - Fan-out queries expose the exact words LLMs want to see about your brand — Peec AI's Malte Landwehr on how to read them. Malte Landwehr is CPO and CMO at Peec AI, and he spent two decades in search before this — VP Product at Searchmetrics, then VP SEO at idealo, running enterprise SEO across roughly 130 million pages. His core argument: LLMs reward consensus. If your website, your founder's LinkedIn, your press release footer, and your G2 profile describe you three different ways, the model has nothing consistent to trust. Describing yourself identically everywhere you have control is the highest-leverage AI visibility work most brands still haven't done. He also gets specific about what doesn't hold up. Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) and Generative Engine Optimization (GEO) have picked up tactics that don't survive testing — schema markup can't carry facts your body copy leaves out, duplicate .md versions of pages went uncited across hundreds of thousands of chats, and llms.txt is guidance for AI agents rather than a visibility lever. What works is duller: declarative sentences, concrete numbers, and content that answers what the fan-outs are already asking about you. In This Episode - Why LLMs look for consensus — and what happens when your site, LinkedIn, and G2 profile don't match - How should you do keyword research when fan-out queries add terms you never wrote? - What ChatGPT's site: fan-outs reveal about whether OpenAI has its own link graph - Does schema markup still influence AI citations? What the testing actually shows - Markdown copies, .md URLs, and llms.txt — where each one belongs - Product feeds, Yelp/Resy/OpenTable, and how local visibility works inside ChatGPT - Why the biggest lever is usually the wrong first project A practitioner's map of what to change, what to measure, and what to ignore in AI search right now. Subscribe for new episodes with the practitioners actually doing the work → https://www.youtube.com/@thepage2podcast922?sub_confirmation=1 Comment: what's the strangest term you've seen appended to a fan-out query for your brand? Connect with Malte Landwehr ✅ Malte on LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/landwehr ✅ Malte on X → https://x.com/maltelandwehr ✅ Malte's Personal website → https://www.maltelandwehr.de ✅ Peec AI → https://peec.ai #### Sponsored by Moving Traffic Media → https://www.movingtrafficmedia.com Follow the Page 2 Podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Youtube → https://www.youtube.com/@thepage2podcast922 ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/company/page2podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Facebook → https://www.facebook.com/ThePage2Podcast/ ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/page2pod ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Tiktok → https://www.tiktok.com/@jonleeclark Follow Jon Clark ✅ Jon Clark on Twitter → https://x.com/jonlclark ✅ Jon Clark on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlclark

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  Episode #132

  Direct Traffic Is Your Missing AI Metric - Derek Hobson on Why You Should Report SEO + Direct

  Aug 17, 202650 minS6

  https://page2pod.com - Clicks are disappearing. Derek Hobson makes the case that direct traffic is the AI search signal most teams aren't measuring. Derek Hobson — SEO strategist, writer behind SEO Humorist, and former Senior Director of SEO and AI Search at Brainlabs — argues that when organic clicks shrink, the proof of impact moves elsewhere: direct sessions, log files, and query fan-out data. On several of his accounts, direct and organic tracked in parallel for years until direct broke upward right as clicks fell and impressions climbed. His read: people research a brand inside an LLM, then go straight to the site. He can't prove it yet, and he says so out loud to clients — but directionally, it's the number he'd watch. The second argument is organizational. Off-page SEO can't sit in an optional package anymore now that answer engines scrape, aggregate, and synthesize third-party sources. That means SEO, paid, PR, and social have to actually talk to each other — and most companies are still built around separate teams, separate budgets, and separate reporting. Jon Clark and Joe DeVita also get into automating reporting with Apps Script, why LLM referral numbers in analytics are almost certainly wrong, and why Derek thinks every SEO should investigate a win as aggressively as a loss. In This Episode - Is direct traffic the AI search signal most teams are ignoring? - Who actually owns the direct channel — and why nobody claims it - Why off-page SEO stopped being an optional line item - Query fan-out and grounding queries: what the Gemini API and Microsoft Clarity now expose - Why LLM referral traffic looks impossibly small in analytics - Building a paid-and-organic gap analysis that starts real cross-team conversations - Automating monthly data pulls with Apps Script and pattern-matching keywords with embeddings - Investigating positive results the same way you'd investigate a drop A practical look at what "proving the work" looks like when the click is no longer the unit of measurement. Subscribe for new Page 2 Podcast episodes with the practitioners actually doing this work. Comment: who owns direct traffic at your company — and have you seen the same uptick Derek describes? Sponsored by Moving Traffic Media → https://www.movingtrafficmedia.com Follow the Page 2 Podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Youtube → https://www.youtube.com/@thepage2podcast922 ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/company/page2podcast ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Facebook → https://www.facebook.com/ThePage2Podcast/ ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/page2pod ✅ Page 2 Podcast on Tiktok → https://www.tiktok.com/@jonleeclark Follow Jon Clark ✅ Jon Clark on Twitter → https://x.com/jonlclark ✅ Jon Clark on Linkedin → https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlclark Find Derek Hobson ✅ SEO Humorist → https://seohumorist.com ✅ Derek Hobson on LinkedIn → https://www.linkedin.com/in/dereknhobson/ ✅ Derek Hobson on YouTube → https://www.youtube.com/@seohumorist ✅ Derek Hobson on Reddit → https://www.reddit.com/user/SEO_Humorist/ ✅ Derek Hobson on Instagram → https://instagram.com/seohumorist✅ Derek Hobson on Bluesky → https://bsky.app/profile/seohumorist.bsky.social✅ Derek Hobson on X → https://x.com/Seo_humorist✅ Derek Hobson on TikTok → https://tiktok.com/@seohumorist

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