The New Orchard
The Changing Mind with Marcel Kuijsten
Title: The Changing Mind Subtitle: Julian Jaynes, the Bicameral Mind and the Evolution of Consciousness Guest: Marcel Kuijsten What if the way human beings experience their own minds has not always been the same? In 1976, psychologist Julian Jaynes proposed one of the most radical theories about the human mind ever published: that the introspective consciousness we take for granted may not be an immutable feature of human nature, but the product of a relatively recent cultural transformation. Jaynes argued that ancient humans once operated according to what he called the bicameral mind , in which auditory experiences interpreted as the voices of gods, ancestors or authorities played a central role in directing behaviour. He believed the breakdown of this system gave rise to the modern conscious mind, with its capacity for introspection, inner narrative, subjective time and an imagined self. One of Jaynes's most famous clues came from Homer. In the Iliad , gods repeatedly intervene directly in human affairs, issuing commands and influencing decisions. In the Odyssey , written later, that relationship appears to have changed. Jaynes believed this literary transformation reflected something deeper than changing mythology: a transformation in the architecture of the human mind. But can such an extraordinary claim actually be supported by evidence? In this episode I speak with Marcel Kuijsten , Founder and Executive Director of the Julian Jaynes Society and one of the world's leading researchers and advocates of Jaynes's work. We explore the evidence for the bicameral mind, ancient literature, dreams, voice-hearing, schizophrenia, the origins of religion and the possibility that organised religion emerged partly as divine voices became increasingly silent. We also examine one of the most important contemporary challenges to Jaynes: Iain McGilchrist's hemispheric theory of consciousness . McGilchrist argues that Jaynes identified something important but ultimately reversed the direction of the story, while Marcel's critique challenges the neuroscience and historical assumptions underlying McGilchrist's account. The conversation takes us into some particularly difficult territory: Marcel's research into ancient China and what changes in language might reveal about consciousness; whether Jaynes's framework can illuminate Christianity without simply explaining away its claims about Jesus; and whether voice-hearing and altered states offer clues about the relationship between ancient and modern mentality. Finally, we bring Jaynes into the present. Could artificial intelligence, voice assistants and algorithmic media create new forms of externalised authority? If consciousness has been shaped by culture before, could technological change alter the way we experience our own minds again? This is not an argument that Jaynes was right. It is an invitation to take seriously a question that may be even more important than the answer: What if the way it feels to be human is not simply human nature? Links and interview references: Julian Jaynes Society - https://www.julianjaynes.org/ National Hearing Voices Network - https://www.hearing-voices.org/ Julian Jaynes Society Books - https://www.julianjaynes.org/books/ Theodore Kaczynski’s Industrial Society and Its Future - https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unabomber/manifesto.text.htm
