Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba

Love and Compassion Podcast-Where Gissele talks with everyday exceptional people who have overcome adversities and have wisdom to share.

Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba is a health podcast hosted by Gissele Taraba, with 87 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80. PitchCentric scores this show on Booking Probability, Listen Score, and live audience signals refreshed every 24 hours.

Gissele Taraba hosts Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba, a health show with 87 episodes published.

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  Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba

  Ep. 86 – Loving All Aspects of Ourselves with Rashi Nayar

  Feb 4, 202654 min

  TRANSCRIPT Gissele: Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking with Rashi Nayar, and she’s on a mission to shift humanity from lower states of consciousness to higher states of consciousness. Gissele: I’m so, so excited to talk to her today. We’re gonna have a great conversation and she’s gonna do a practice with me. Maybe you can tag along as well. So welcome Rashi. Hi Gissele: Rashi. Rashi: Hi Gissele. Rashi: I’m so honored to be here with you. Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for being on the show. I’m really looking forward to it. Gissele: What led you to be on this mission to increase the consciousness of humanity? Rashi: My own path to increasing my own consciousness, you know, to operate from higher states of consciousness, which is peace, joy, and love. You know, these are actually who we are and we explore that more as we go along. Rashi: But I was very depressed for 18 years of my life, you know, since [00:01:00] 2007 when I lost my dog and in a car accident. And that was the first time I had experienced unconditional love that way, you know, someone loved me for who I am, not for, I had to prove myself or I had to perform. I had to be someone. Rashi: I could just be whatever. And he loved me that way, right? And it’s very beautiful to get that type of love from someone in that way. And when I lost him, he was only two years old and he met with a car accident and he died in my arms. But that was like it was like an opening. And it was like my heart broke for the very first time. Rashi: I had never experienced something like that before and I was grieving, but that was the first time I started asking questions like, who am I? Why am I here? What’s our true purpose? What is God? What is enlightenment? You know, all of that. Because what my soul was longing for was to connect back to that unconditional love that I had experienced from him. Rashi: But I didn’t know, [00:02:00] I was always looking outside, you know, outside myself. And I entered toxic relationships because I thought that other people were gonna give that to me. I was very disappointed and I was very depressed. I wasn’t chronically depressed. I was depressed, but I was also living in a low, low grade anxiety for a very, like, very long time until 2025. Rashi: This year when I lost another family member, I lost my aunt to ms. So that episode really shook me to the core and it forced me to sit in stillness with just with myself. Like no more reading books, no more going outwards, right? Because that’s what I always did. I would go to a spiritual retreat. Rashi: I would, you know, go outwards, read books, do therapies, you know, do coaching. I did a lot of work, technically a lot of healing work, and maybe that was required, but. Nothing really significantly changed. You know, I was still the same. I was [00:03:00] still living with low grade anxiety and I was still the same. And but this time I went inwards and I connected with the part of myself that is infinite, that is peaceful, that is love. Rashi: And I realized that everything that I thought about myself or the identity that was caring was actually not who I truly was or not, or not who I am. The identities or the masks that I was wearing, you know, the mom, the entrepreneur, and the aunt and the friend, all of those were really masks and identities that I was carrying. Rashi: But who I truly am, my most authentic self is actually free already. She’s already free. And it’s not even a, she, I wouldn’t even, we cannot really label, right? It’s, it’s. The vast infinite being that we are is inherently peaceful. Is [00:04:00] inherently open. Infinitely joyful. Infinitely blissful and loving. Rashi: Compassionate. That peaceful, that’s who we are inherently. And I, stayed in that high, right? Let’s just say I was in those higher states of consciousness for three days straight and I was floating. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: Yeah. I was so high. But then came the day I went down, the anxiety was back again, and I was like, wait, I thought I was enlightened. Gissele: I did it. What happened? Rashi: But that is what what’s supposed to happen, because now. I could see the contrast, right? I had experienced something so profound, and now there’s the contrast or the lower states of consciousness, which is fear, anxiety, lack. I was back, I was back in the fully humanness, you know, the human part of me, but [00:05:00] now my aunts, so she passed away and three days later she, she was in my head, she kept telling me, Rashi, love yourself. Rashi: Rashi, love yourself rash. It’s like, it was constant. And I realized that I didn’t love the parts of me that were so-called dark or negative. I was trying to get rid of anxiety. I was trying to get rid of the darkness, right? I was trying to resist whatever I was experiencing in the moment, and that was profound because now my only job is to love myself unconditionally. Rashi: In all parts of myself, the shadows they call it in the psychology. But I realized that the parts that I’m trying to get rid of, the anxiety, the so-called depression, the low level depression that I was constantly feeling the numbness or the sometimes of sometimes just sadness, [00:06:00] like it would just come up. Rashi: What if I fell in love with those parts of myself? Then what would happen? And that became the journey that became the practice. And when I did that, I no longer resisted those. So it was just the experience and me in love with whatever what is right, whatever the experience is. And now I’m whole, now I’m not broken, you know, there’s some, nothing’s wrong with me. Rashi: You know, and that was the narrative that I lived with for 18 years. If something is wrong with me, I need to be fixed. I need the healing, I need the therapy. But really there is nothing inherently is wrong with me. We all experienced this human side of things and what if I fell in love with the humanness, Rashi: And that’s why the being that I experienced, so in those three days when I experienced the so-called enlightenment or the awakening, it was when I touched my being. And our being is inherently free. We who we are, our [00:07:00] authenticity, we are inherently free. We are peaceful. And yet the human side of things or you know, how we grow up, our conditioning, our identity, our beliefs that we carry, all of that is there. Rashi: And that is the conditioning. So the constructed itself or the human is still there, but we cannot try to get rid of it. It’s like, you know, the snake leaves its skin. By its own. We cannot force the skin. We cannot rip the skin out of the snake, you know? So it’s going to happen only when we fully and completely fall in love with who we are in the humanness. Rashi: And that brings me back to that connection, to that love, to that peace that resides within all of us. So that’s in a nutshell, that that’s the story. That’s why I do what I do. Gissele: beautifully said. First I wanna go back to the, the loss of your dog as a person who had a dog. Gissele: Never wanted a dog to be honest, but we got one for a family and felt completely in love with the dog. And after [00:08:00] 13 years to have lost him. And I realize now that he had to go the way that he did. But he did teach me about unconditional love and patience and forgiveness and joy. And so the grief that you experience after having that can feel very overwhelming. And so where I was going with this question is, the human experience can feel so real, I have sat with some really difficult emotions it’s almost as if your mind tells you that something’s gonna happen something bad or you’re gonna die. Gissele: What do you say to people that say, you know, This is all we are because this is what we can concretely see and touch and experience. How do you go from that to understanding and embodying the fact that we are more than this reality? Rashi: Yes. Oh, that’s such an important question. Something that I live with almost every day. Rashi: You know, there’s this low grade anxiety that I still experience on a daily basis. [00:09:00] The only thing that’s different is I’m no longer resisting it. Gissele: Hmm. Rashi: So, you know, and we human beings, we are either, we’re only living in two A states at all time. We’re either to attach to the state that we want, which has happiness, joy, love, bliss, or we are resisting the lower states of consciousness, which is anxiety. Rashi: We’re really in, in these two states or all times. So it’s like when we get that love from the dog or the baby, you know, I have two babies, two little girls. And I’m like, I want it all the time. Right. So now there’s attachment, because if she says something like, I have a 4-year-old, which is a, she’s a very mischievous toddler. Rashi: Right. When you say something that can feel like hurtful. I mean, I don’t take her things seriously because I know better, but Gissele: yeah, Rashi: for someone else it could feel like, what, what would just happen? Like we were in love and now, or the, the spouse says something, right? Like, I have my husband who really triggers me, so he’s, he’s like my [00:10:00] best enemy, right? Rashi: Like he’s my favorite person, so mm-hmm. He says some things that can feel hurtful, and in the beginning it really used to bother me because I would resist those things. I would resist the experience of whatever’s happening in the moment, right? But now I lean into it, and that’s the difference when we are getting this anxiety or when we are getting something and the experience doesn’t feel pleasant. Rashi: The mind itself because the mind is like that. Mind wants to go navigate towards pleasure and it wants to avoid pain. That’s how the mind is, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: But we are not the mind though. So in the moment, if we can witness the mind’s neuros, whatever it does is like trying to resist. What we do is we say, first I love you mind. Rashi: Because the thing is the mind in itself is what it’s doing. It’s movement what it’s supposed to be doing. [00:11:00] And the second thing is, I love you, anxiety and that love it. It’s the experience that feels heavy, that feels not good, right? And that experience now is infused with love. So there’s no longer a problem with what is, with the experience itself. Rashi: And there’s a beautiful book written by Byron Kitty and her, the name of the book is Loving What Is, and apparently, you know, she’s enlightened, you know, every like, so she’s the enlightened being, right? We can talk in that way. I’m not enlightened for sure, but that’s what she meant. I didn’t understand it back then. Rashi: But this is what she means is whatever our experience is, if we are not attaching ourself to it, which means we are not craving more of that, or we are not resisting that, [00:12:00] then we have no problem with the experience. So the experience in itself is not a problem, Gissele. It’s our relationship with the experience that’s the problem. Rashi: So the anxiety in itself is not a problem. It’s how I relate to anxiety, how I see it. That in itself is the issue here. So if we’re like, okay, anxiety is here, can I love it? Can I lean into it? And when I do, and it can feel scary because some people might think that if I lean into that, that means it’s gonna expand, it’s gonna grow more. Rashi: Right? That’s sometimes where the belief is, and I definitely have that, but it’s actually what happens is the other way that anxiety or that bubble becomes love. And you know, there’s a great saint in India, I really, really respect him. He’s no longer in body and that’s, I always keep this picture over here. Rashi: Mm-hmm. [00:13:00] His name is named Carol Baba, and he was apparently he’s the same behind Apple. You know, Steve Jobs went to his temple. Rashi: I love him. I’ve never met him, but somehow I love him. Rashi: And, you know, love has no logic. Gissele: And it has no boundary either. It doesn’t, it doesn’t mean that you can’t love somebody who’s passing. And I think that’s the difficulty perception about, we think that when somebody crosses over that the love ends. I still love my dog bear and I still think about him. Gissele: I think about caressing him. I think about, I talk to him. But anyways, go on. Rashi: Yes, you’re right. Exactly. So, because love is unconditional and love is who we are. Mm-hmm. Which I’m going to take you back to so you can experience it yourself. But he used to say that suffering brings us closer to God. Rashi: Mm. And God is love. And so suffering, meaning anxiety, pain, whatever, chronic pain. I mean, people who are his devotees and people who have written books about him, they [00:14:00] said that, I’m so glad that there’s this pain in my life because it helps me take back to him love or God. And that’s exactly what we’re doing here, is we are saying, whatever comes to our experience, I love you. Rashi: Anxiety, I love you. Guilt, depression, grief, It can feel really hard in that moment, but that is the portal, the bridge between the lower states of consciousness, which is anxiety, fear, all of that to higher states of consciousness, which is love, peace, joy, abundance, that love and saying it mentally in the beginning it could feel like a mental repetition. Rashi: Everything is like, and then you’re like, I love you. I honor you. Even if you’re here, I love myself and I love, I mean, that’s loving kindness. The practice of loving kindness meta in Buddhism is loving ourselves and then loving people in our lives and loving [00:15:00] what is, you know, so that’s a tool that if people can use then, you know, I would love to hear how their life transforms. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. it’s definitely something that I use myself and what I realized was that the more love I had in my heart for myself, the more it overflowed to other people. Like I didn’t need them to be different. I didn’t need them to change ’cause I didn’t need them to give me anything. Gissele: I really resonated with what you’re talking about, resistance. I noticed that one thing about myself is when I encountered the most resistance to what was happening, my inability to accept and surrender, had to do with my belief that if I surrendered, I was giving up. Gissele: That was accepting. What is that? it’s like saying that there was no hope or no chance Rashi: Mm-hmm. Gissele: I didn’t realize that the deeper thinking behind my resistance had to do with that. This has power over me, so if I give into it, it’ll take me, it’ll do what it wants to do. Correct. And so when I let go of that story [00:16:00] and allowed myself to surrender, there was a level of peace, but it was hard to get there. Gissele: I just wanna acknowledge what you’re talking about is so brilliant, but it can feel really challenging. And it doesn’t have to, but it can. Because I remember when I would ask for guidance from my higher self God source universe, the guidance that I always got was Love it. Choose it. Gissele: And I’m like, well, I don’t wanna choose this. I don’t wanna accept this. And so, but I would lie to myself thinking that I was not in resistance, but I was in resistance. ’cause my body was so tight. Rashi: Yeah. Gissele: And so, it can feel difficult to let go of that resistance. And we are. Gissele: Not really taught to surrender. we’re doers. Rashi: I just gotta keep grinding it out and eventually this is gonna come through. Gissele: how is that counterintuitive to allow love? Rashi: I love that question because I was exactly what you’re describing. For 11 years of my life, I was a [00:17:00] serial entrepreneur. I’ve scaled my own businesses to seven figures plus. And I learned it from my dad. Rashi: You know, it’s a learned behavior. You keep pushing through, you just keep doing, you know, and that’s discipline. Yeah. And consistency. Like those words feel really good. Discipline, consistency and but it didn’t feel good to my body. Gissele: Oh, Rashi: right. It does. It feels like, oh, it, it felt like I’m choking, but I still kept pushing through and I burned out very much. Rashi: So that’s why, you know, I no longer do what I used to do for 11 years and it just didn’t feel aligned anymore. I wanted to open my heart. I wanted to lead from the heart. So, to answer your question, Gissele, when you say that you are the doer, I wanna take you into this is again, a constructed and identity. Gissele: Yeah. Rashi: Right. This is, again, something that we have [00:18:00] adopted from our environment and from our parents, maybe from our teachers, someone we really admired because they had this habit of keep going and it felt really inspiring, right? Because they accomplished so much and the narrative that we. Play in our head is if we keep doing that means, you know, we’re bring, we’re service. Rashi: This is service to humanity and we’re serving, we’re adding value. All of that feels really good, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: And it feels like we’re in service. But the highest service, and I haven’t come to that point myself, but I get glimpses of that, is surrender. And I’ll tell you why. The highest service is surrender is because when we are surrendered, we are now the channel for God will to flow through us what God wants us. Rashi: And that is the path of least resistance. The [00:19:00] path of least resistance is when we are, it’s not my will, it’s God’s will. The problem. The problem, we don’t have a problem. The brain has a problem. And this is, now, let’s go back to scientifically, understanding the scientifically how this works is the brain wants to solve problems because our brain is from the ancestors we lived. Rashi: Our brain is coming from survival. You know, it, it doesn’t know how to thrive. It knows how to survive, right? And survival means keep pushing through. It means keep solving problems because there could be a line behind us and if we don’t solve problems, we are gonna die. So the brain is used to solving problems. Rashi: So it’s not necessarily you that wants to do, it’s your brain that wants to fix the problem. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: So Rashi: once you understand who you are, then you don’t relate to your brain as yourself. That, and that’s what we do, is we relate to our brain’s [00:20:00] mechanism or our mind’s workings as ourselves. We identify that that’s who I am, but that’s not who we are. Rashi: when we realize who we are, then we are free. Then we can see the workings of the mind as the workings of the mind. And we’re like, ah, that’s what the mind wants us to do right now. But what do I wanna do? Which means I, the, which I’m gonna take you to let you experience that for yourself. So we can do that whenever you’re ready. Gissele: Yeah, of course. I just wanted to mention a couple more things. in my life surrender has been so fundamental. Mm-hmm. It’s led to some magical things happening. But what I noticed was th

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  Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba

  Ep. 85 – Educating from the Inside Out: Leadership, Self-Worth, and Compassion with Deidre Harris

  Jan 24, 202644 min

  TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Gissele: Today we’ll be chatting with Deidre Harris, who is a national leadership in highly effective teams development trainer and coach. She supports educational programs looking to enhance their administrative staff’s leadership skills and their teaching teams levels of effectiveness. Gissele: Please join me in welcoming Deidre. Deidre: Hi. Gissele: Hi. Hello. Welcome to the show. Oh, Deidre: thank you for inviting me. Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for being here. This is definitely a topic of interest for me. I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you got into this work. Deidre: Oh my gosh. To make a long story, very short that I’ve just been working in the education field for over 35 years [00:01:00] and through all of my very. Deidre: Various different positions. You know, leadership has just been coming up over and over and over again. And, and what does that look like? As a teacher working with children or as an assistant supporting that teacher or as a director or principal supporting staff. And so no matter what position I was in or what I was doing, leadership was just always, at the foundation of everything we did. So as I stepped out to do my own work, it just kept coming up more and more, and so I said, okay, there’s a need. Let me get out there and help to address it. Gissele: Wonderful. Wonderful. And what were some of the biggest leadership challenges you saw in the education system? Deidre: Well, gosh, I have to start with myself, Gissele right? So how did leadership show up in me? And a lot of times we kind of think about it and put it under the category of professionalism, but leadership. Actually goes [00:02:00] beyond professionalism to to be professional, to to show up with that hat, to do the work that you are hired to do in a manner that you know, that gives great outcomes for everybody. Deidre: That’s just one piece of it. When I go in and I talk about leadership, it’s really about mindset. And so I actually had to work on my own set. Who am I as a leader? And how do I get to show up in that leadership to, you know, to actually, again, get those outcomes that I’m looking for. And so, as I was, you know, as I started doing this work among myself, like I mentioned earlier, I started seeing it. Deidre: Elsewhere. And what I notice is that again, well, the biggest challenge, or the thing that I notice the most is everybody attributes leadership to a title. Gissele: Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, you’re Deidre: either your administrator or like I said before. You’re a director or a principal or, you know, sit [00:03:00] somewhere where leadership is part of your, your title in the sense of authority. Deidre: And so that’s, I would say one of my, my biggest challenges and, and what I noticed and again, what’s, you know, motivated me to do this work because leadership, we’re all leaders. You know, regardless of our title, regardless of what we do, and because I have that belief, then going out there and helping people to see their leadership and then to start standing in their leadership, that’s, that’s been my ongoing challenge in work. Gissele: Hmm. Deidre: Yeah. Gissele: Thank you for that. Thank you. and I really appreciate that you said that you know, everyone or anyone is a leader, right? Including the children. And so as teachers who, step up into their own leadership can then model that for the kids themselves. But the school system isn’t always sort of designed that way. Gissele: Where leadership [00:04:00] can come from anywhere. It is at times designed in a very hierarchical, as many other systems that we have. How has the structure been sort of a little bit of a hindrance or help, around leadership? Deidre: Well, you know, I would say it’s definitely a hindrance or, a challenge, a barrier, and again, you nailed it. Deidre: The education field is very hierarchy driven. It’s very top down. We see that in our struggles with, being a teacher or wanting to be a teacher and having things. Put upon you that you have little to no control over and and hence some of the impact in terms of the severe teacher shortage that we’re in right now. Deidre: I mean, who wants to work under those demands. So absolutely. Going in and again, helping people to understand that when you take on and think about personal leadership, it takes you out of this space of feel, what I call victimhood [00:05:00] of feeling like, oh. I have no control, I have no influence. Deidre: I have no power. And really showing people just how much power they actually have, even when things are being put upon them. So how they address the situation, how do they stand up and use their voice? How do they actually go through and develop their skillsets? Those are things we all have Personal power. Deidre: Over and agency. And so therefore, we can stand in our leadership regardless of what’s going on around us. And in fact, when we’re truly grounded in our leadership, the outside world tends to impact us less. Meaning it’s not like things don’t happen, but our response, we tend to be more responsive and less reactive. Deidre: Yeah. Right. And, and ultimately that’s the goal. Gissele: And what you said is so, so important because I think you’re right. There’s times when we feel [00:06:00] helpless and so if you, if we really can reflect on where’s my power in this moment, even if it’s just in how I react to this particular experience, then we’ll feel more powerful then we feel like we’ll have more leadership Gissele: I just wanted to go back to your point about this this sort of shortage for teachers. Do you think that sort of the lack of funding or the lack of like, the amount of money that teachers are getting paid, it might be contributing? Because right now the cost of living seems to be not necessarily reflecting what people’s salaries are. Deidre: Absolutely Deidre: So wages and salaries are certainly part of that. And also, I mean, there’s a disparity even within the education field. So if you’re if you are part of a school district, then your salary tends to be higher. You have access to more resources. Including additional education that, you know, can be subsidized as well as benefits.[00:07:00] Deidre: But if you’re in early childhood, which is where I spend a lot of my time, where we’re working with teachers who are with infants, toddlers, and preschoolers, many of them are in community schools and don’t have the same system set up. So their wages, their benefits, their resources are even less. And yet the expectations for their education are the same and we know how ex. Deidre: Expensive it is for college, right. To get that degree. And so even in early education, you need to have a degree. So now we’re asking people to take on a lot of debt, right? Yeah. Because most of us, how many of us can afford paying for it outright? So we’re taking on a lot of debt and coming out with very low wages. Deidre: Which means that, I mean, just the cost of living, but those dreams like owning a house, right? Or you know, things like that, providing for your family get whittled way down because of the amount of debt that you’re already coming out with. [00:08:00] And so, absolutely, that has a lot to do with the field. And as I mentioned earlier, again, because a lot of things are so top down driven, they’re, a lot of things, again, I use the word put upon because it is directed by people sometimes outside of the field who Have little understanding or have an expectation of an outcome and say, this is what you know we want you to do and this is how you, we want you to do it. All of that decreases the, motivation for becoming a teacher because they actually have taken the art away from it, and I don’t think people see, you know, realize that teaching is both the science. Deidre: And in art. Mm-hmm. And so we can go in and deliver a curriculum and the curriculum is the science part, but how we do it when we do it to, you know, to what degree we do it, what strategies are we doing when that’s the art piece. And many times things are so [00:09:00] structured that the art goes away. It, it’s no longer fun. Gissele: Yeah. I completely agree Absolutely. Yeah. sometimes I think to myself, we kind of live in a topsy-turvy world, right? Like, think about the people that make millions of dollars. Not that we should take anything away from people to play, football and movie stars Gissele: Wonderful. You know, you’re allowed your abundance, but important roles such as teaching and nursing they’re paid such, such a base level and it just doesn’t work. And we’re kind of in an interesting time. Gissele: I see it because we kind of have this gap. there was the baby boomers and people of my generation and even younger that kind of got sold a bag of goods, right? and it sort of worked for us during our time you could go to a good school, graduate, get a good job, get all the things that you thought you were going to get, but the new generation. Gissele: Even if they graduate, they come out with huge debt. They don’t have jobs that are going to pay them because some of these companies now are just wanting to not pay [00:10:00] benefits, not just give what people deserve. Mm-hmm. And so then you see this new generation that is like, I’m out. Gissele: Yes. I’m gonna live off grid. I’m gonna make money on social media. I’m just not gonna do those things. Yes. And so something’s gonna have to change, right? Like, I think we’re gonna have to prioritize. These sorts of positions and go back to the art and go back to the acknowledging the value that is being offered by these positions it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Gissele: I mean, these people can still say in their abundance, but the abundance of teachers and nurses should be elevated from my perspective. Deidre: Yes. I totally agree. I mean, and you know, we could spend weeks here on this topic alone. Right. just thinking about, you know, what are our priorities? Deidre: And when I go back and, and we know this because, [00:11:00] I mean, the research has come out over and over and over again, the return on investment, so. So I’m gonna bring it back to education because the return on investment, when we invest in our children, it’s something like 16 to 18% or times what the initial investment was. Deidre: So if we were to say to someone, Hey, if you invest, you know so much, you know, a hundred dollars and you’re gonna get a eight, 16 to 18% return, everyone would flock to that. Right? Yeah. Everyone would be buying shares in that company. So it’s really interesting how we look at it, the investment in that way. Deidre: Yet we don’t see the same type of investment in our children. And yet, look at our role today. Right. I mean, yeah. Yes. There’s great things happening and yes, there are, things happening. that we’ve never seen before in our lifetime. Yeah. And to go back to what you were saying, Gissele [00:12:00] this generation is the first generation that has done not as well as their parents’ generation. Deidre: So when you’re talking about they’re coming out with debt, that we have so many students coming out and having to live with their families because the jobs just aren’t out there paying what they would need to survive with inflation, or they have this huge mountain of debt that, you know, that they have to get up underneath of, and all of these other things. Deidre: So we get to. To look at that because what are we setting up for the generations who are, coming after us? what are we leaving them? Gissele: Yeah. and I totally agree with that, but, I have to reflect and I do believe that we’ve accepted certain things over time. Like one of the things I would hear often again and again is that, people. Gissele: Believe that like doing good, you don’t have to accept that much pay. Right? It should be free or it should be low. So I feel like there’s an element well, we’ve done this to ourselves, [00:13:00] and I feel like now is the time that we’re like no more. Because Gissele: that really allows you to then do more of that important work. there doesn’t have to be a trade off between you doing good and allowing your abundance to come into you. But I feel like we have, ’cause that was the one thing that I always heard, like people that are doing good and helping people, oh, it can’t cost that much. Gissele: It has to be free. And it’s like, okay, so this is why we’re in the situation we’re in. But like you said, we have power. We just have to say, well, we are not willing to take this low pay anymore. It’s done. So either pay us what we’re worth, or you’re gonna have systems shut down. Mm-hmm. Gissele: Because they’re not gonna have anyone to do the job. What are your thoughts? Deidre: so Gissele you take us right into the leadership mindset, and that’s why I’ve started doing that work. For just that reason is because you even said it. Deidre: It not that I wanna move into blaming or shaming, and yet we do get to [00:14:00] own that. When whoever we are in the helping field, whether it’s coaching in whatever area, or education or health, whatever that field is, it’s this idea of our money mindset. Right. Like, you know, money is the, the root of all evil or whatever. Deidre: We grew up with that somehow, and you said it, that somehow that when we attach money to helping others, now we’re wrong or we’re greedy, or we should do it from the love of our heart. And basically what we’re being asked to do is to subsidize. Other people’s wellbeing. And I think we have to really understand that, that really we’re being asked to subsidize, you know? Deidre: Somebody else’s health or somebody’s else is fitness or somebody else’s, you know, whatever that is. And so, like you said, when when we step into that leadership mindset and say, this is who [00:15:00] I am and this is how I wanna show up in the world, as soon as we fully own that, then the money doesn’t quite become an issue. Deidre: Or we start moving out of that and we start charging what we’re worth. Mm-hmm. And so that right there is, is just really huge. And again, as I bring it back to the education field, it not that you’re gonna go out and and demand a salary increase, but as you show up and, and we start advocating for ourselves and say. Deidre: Look, the, this is what we’re talking about. here’s your return on the investment. It FARs outweigh what, what you’re paying me. We get to start equalizing or leveling things up. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna disagree, Deidre. I do think that people should go out and ask for an increase the cost of living is so far above, and somebody did the numbers, I think it was on TikTok. Gissele: People are now spending almost like. 75% on their salary on living, [00:16:00] which doesn’t leave a lot to save. Whereas, you know, like many moons ago, it’s only about half. And so people were able to save for a house. We’re able to do all of these things. But let’s talk about worth. And I think that’s the thing. Gissele: Historically, we have not really valued our worth. I heard these two people talking about, how, they expect people to work nine to five, but they said come in for an eight o’clock meeting. Yes. and the person said, no, sorry, I’ve got this going on. Gissele: I can’t make it. And it was a huge deal. and they were, criticizing them and ostracizing them for doing stuff outside of work hours. And I think for many, many years we accepted that we thought it made us valuable and that somehow there’ll be a return on investment and it has not. Gissele: All it’s done is, oh look, we get a praise. And just praise is just not gonna cut it anymore. Which is why I think this younger generation is keep your praise. Yep. I’m gonna keep my money or I’m gonna keep my time. Right. And so I do [00:17:00] think it’s the time now to truly say, okay, what am I worth? And this is what I desire in terms of income. Gissele: What are your thoughts? Deidre: and I agree with that. So let me just go back and clarify. Deidre: ’cause I’m not saying don’t go out and advocate for yourself and financially, it’s just one way to do it. Mm-hmm. When you’re talking about stepping into your self worth. And again, the key is to own it. Yeah. So when you’re in your leadership, right and you’re owning your worth, that’s when the advocacy really happens. Deidre: And here’s what often happens is, is people will say I want you to do for me what I won’t even do for myself. Deidre: Fair Gissele: enough. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Deidre: So, when we’re grounded, when we’re in our leadership and we’re presenting ourselves as leaders, then that’s what I mean by that. The advocacy comes and absolutely, we still get to have those discussions and fight for [00:18:00] equal pay by all means, and not just as a group, but in. Deidre: Individuals, because not every person is equal. Right? Yeah. And what value we have is going to be different based on the work that we’re doing and who we’re doing that work with. So we get to be really clear about our value, and many of us aren’t. Yeah. So it’s really hard to go out and say, you know, I think I should have more money and not be able to answer the question of, well, what are you bringing to the table? Deidre: Hmm. And that’s where many of us are, as opposed to, you know, coming in and say, wow, when I come in, I’m able to do this, this, this, this, and this, and the benefits of this is this, this, this, this, and this. Now we have something to talk about and negotiate and discuss with. That’s us being in our leadership. Gissele: Mm, I understand. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Deidre: yeah. Gissele: [00:19:00] Thank you for that. And speaking of different values, Let’s talk about compassion in the education system and the challenges that may present themselves in terms of managing behavior problems and then where leadership would fit in those circumstances. Deidre: Yeah, this is me sighing Gissele becauseyou know, I’m a little speechless and the reason for that is because you would think of all fields. All fields, or at least like you said, one of the helping fields that compassion would be embedded. And I have to say it’s not now there’s gonna be, you know, listeners out there that are gonna disagree with me, you’re probably gonna get a flood. Deidre: What is she talking about? That’s okay. You know, where I work, there’s, you know, compassion, but I just mean generally speaking that. Again, if we’re talking about, say, teachers with children, it’s not that teachers don’t have compassion for children, but they’re fried. Yeah. They’re [00:20:00] burnt out because of the, the workload and what they’re asked to do. Deidre: Now you take workload and then you bring in children who have lots of challenges on a lot of different areas, whether it’s just, you know learning. Disabilities that they h

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  Episode #84

  Ep. 84 – Love Without End: Animals, Mental Illness, and Life Beyond Death with Rebecca Schaper

  Jan 17, 202635 minS7

  Gissele: [00:00:00] With Martin Luther King, Jr Wright, does love have the power to turn an enemy into a friend? Gissele: Does it have the power to heal? we’re creating an inspiring documentary, courage to love the Power of Compassion, which explores their extraordinary stories of those who have chosen to do the unthinkable, love and forgive even those who are most hurtful. Through their journeys, we will uncover the profound impact of forgiveness and love. Gissele: Have not only of those offering it, but also on those receiving it.  In addition, we’ll hear from experts who will explore whether love and compassion are part of our human nature. And how we can bridge divides with those with disagree with. If you’d like to support our film, please donate a www M-A-I-T-R-I-C-E-N-T-R e.com/documentary. Gissele: That’s olivedrab-lark-105184.hostingersite.com/documentary. Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion [00:01:00] Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking about how love binds us with others, including those of crossed over. Gissele: We’ll be talking with Rebecca Schaper about communicating with animals on the other side after the sudden and unexpected passing of Rebecca Schaper dog’s. Gus. She consulted animal communicator Sonny Mann, beginning a lengthy and revealing correspondence. Gissele: Sonny reported her dialogue with Gus in the afterlife at various times throughout the next year. This moving story includes the transcripts of those psychic sessions, along with Rebecca’s notes from her daily journal as she responds to both the earthly and spiritual guidance from Gus. His spirit describes his life in both worlds. Gissele: He urges her to embrace fully her life contract as a Shamaic practitioner and healer. Please join me in [00:02:00] welcoming Rebecca. Gissele: Hi, Rebecca. Hi. Rebecca: Thank you so much for having me. I’m looking forward to this wonderful conversation. Gissele: Thank you so much for being on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you started this journey of, communicating with Gus on the other side. Rebecca: Sure. 2023. My dog Gus died unexpectedly on December 7th. Mm-hmm. he was six years old. He was my co-pilot. He was definitely my soul dog. It was as though we knew each other in the past life and we communicated to each other telepathically, and of course it broke my heart wide open. To the point where I was worse than losing my parents by suicide and. Rebecca: I’ve never felt grief like that in my life. So in January of [00:03:00] 2024, which was a month after he had passed away, I decided to reach out to a pet communicator because I knew I needed help. and I knew I could not do this on my own. Normally, I can work through situations. I’ve had some real trauma in my life, which I’m grateful for. Rebecca: because it’s definitely led me to a lot of love and compassion like your show. But I knew at this point I definitely needed help. So I communicated with Sonny, asked her if she’d be willing to communicate with my dog, Guss. And what she would do is she would, go into some type of trance is the correct. Rebecca: Word to use, but she was just able to have that strong telepathic connection and she would ask him questions. And then after she was done, I mean it wore her out. She told me, she said, it’s [00:04:00] very taxing on the body. And so after she was done with that first session. I was blown away with what, with what the information she had told me. Rebecca: And so fast forward, we had 10 sessions, so she would transcribe ’em to me because she lived in Australia and the time zone was difficult. And a couple of times we chatted with each other and then I would journal my comments to the comments between Gus and Sonny this book is a three way conversation and so there you go. Rebecca: And it, she was really able to provide a lot of healing for me. And Gissele: what were some of the messages thatwere unique to you in Gus’s experience that most people wouldn’t have known? Rebecca: Yes, I will definitely share a few. One of ’em was she saw the word beck [00:05:00] and Gus said, that’s my mom, Beck, her brother David calls her Beck and. Rebecca: There’s no way that Sonny would’ve known that. I mean, there’s just no way. Because he was communicating to her. He said, yes, that’s my mom. Beck, her brother David calls her back. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rebecca: And then another one, which I felt was really profound. We hiked to Machu Picchu and the day one of the days was on my husband’s and i’s anniversary and I had to look down and there was, I wish I had it with me, but I think it’s on the altar table, Rebecca: it had a heart shaped stone. And I thought, oh my God, on that anniversary, how beautiful. So I kept it with me. Fast forward after Gus had passed away, I was sitting outside [00:06:00] and I was doing some meditation and just kind of working through, Rebecca: really tapping into the stone and some other stones I collected accidentally dropped the heart stone and it broken three pieces. Hmm. And I thought to myself, oh my gosh, is this a sign saying that my heart is broken? Of Gus. So I was devastated. Rebecca: The next day, I walked down, I go to this fire pit’s made outta stone and Guss and my daughter’s dog, Stella would always get on top of that fire pit and they would walk around it and try to find chipmunks. So this was like, you know, a constant thing. So anyway, I would go and put my bird seed on top of the rim of the fire pit so I could feed the birds. And I just happened to look down and there was a heart stone, almost the same shape and size. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rebecca: And, to me I [00:07:00] was like, that. So profound and so stunning and it just warmed my heart completely. And, another one, I’m at my beach house now. Rebecca: We have this area where you can look out over the marsh, and he would always be with me in a red chair is a cushion. And he talked about the red chair and the fire pit looking out over the marsh to her. Mm-hmm. So there’s many more, but that’s what comes to the forefront to me as of now. Gissele: Were there any messages from Sonny and Gus around the relationship between human beings and animals and even the connection and nature that we might have lost? Rebecca: Oh, most definitely. Rebecca: I felt like Gus was trying to communicate, saying they always want to be with you. Gissele: Hmm. Always. Rebecca: they’re always there, They definitely can talk to [00:08:00] you. even the most subtle ways. They speak to you, they can speak to you through songs, which Gus used to speak to me through songs. Rebecca: There’s one of my favorite songs over the Rainbow. And they were unbelievable synchronicities when that song would come on when I was grieving. Mm-hmm. And I knew that was him. They communicate through numbers, they communicate, they can communicate in so many ways. One of the key factors is, is being aware of it Rebecca: It’s to me. It has opened my eyes wide open to whole different realms of communication and not just dogs, cats, any type of animal in nature. Rebecca: ’cause I am very much in tune with nature and they are here to help us. We just have to open up our hearts. [00:09:00] Open up our hearts and listen. trust is a big issue. And one other thing every time I would get a message that I knew intuitively, I knew that was something from Gus. Rebecca: I felt it in my body. I would always say thank you. I would. Be very heartfelt in saying thank you because it’s a gift. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing how we’ve been taught that we are separate from animals and that there’s this hierarchy. Gissele: And so it probably is challenging for people to. To understand or believe that they can communicate with animals. there’s not this hierarchy that somehow human beings know better. Do you believe that people sort of have a contract or agreement even with their animals before they incarnate? Rebecca: Absolutely. Absolutely. I know I did with Gus and now we have a new dog, [00:10:00] Zeke. Gissele: Hmm. Rebecca: And he is from the same breed and from the same breeder, and how synchronicity led up to that. And he’s into my life for a reason as well. Mm. There is no doubt in my mind. I mean, I think about animals. You think about your family. Rebecca: I believe is a contract. Rebecca: if people will look for the lessons and the connection, or even if you’re out and about and you see somewhere and you’re like, God, that energy feels very similar. I feel like I know that person. Rebecca: That could be. A contract soul connection, but you just may not know at that time. Gissele: Yeah. is there some specific practices that you use to help you get in tune? Because sometimes our own emotions can get in the way. Gissele: I lost my dog last November and. I’m very, very grateful for the lessons and the being that he was. Gissele: But I also miss him a lot. [00:11:00] And I know my kids are eager to get another dog, but I’m just like, Gissele: It’s not the right time and I don’t want another dog. I want my dog back. Which is, can we pause Yeah. Rebecca: if you put that intention out Gissele: mm-hmm. Rebecca: Ask your dog. You can have your dog reincarnate and soul dog a new dog, but you’ll know. Gissele: True. Rebecca: you’ll know if you’re supposed to, and that dog, I promise, if you’re open and expanded to it and ask, it will happen. Gissele: my challenge Rebecca is, I also don’t wanna be the type of person that would hold back another soul for my own ego needs, right? Like my dog’s time with me was very, very special and he taught me so much. Gissele: But maybe his journey is to go on and do something else. Like I would never want to hold another soul hostage for my own needs. [00:12:00] And I think that’s what’s been preventing me from. Making that desire request. I’ve heard of from people, lots of different people like yourself included, talking about like, my dog has been reincarnated into this new dog. Gissele: I can feel it. And there signs and all of that stuff. That is wonderful. But I think one of the things my dog taught me was that, that loving without attachment and needing to hold onto the soul. the ability to be able to be grateful for the experiences we had and be open to different experiences. Gissele: I Rebecca: hear you and I validate exactly what you’re saying because I found myself the pain was so excruciating that I found myself forcing Gus to come back. Yeah. And I came to a point where I can’t do this. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: I can’t force it. If he’s supposed to come back, [00:13:00] then so be it. And I had to let go. Mm-hmm. So maybe in your situation, just say if, if it’s meant to be. It will be. If not, then you’re grateful for the time together. And that’s kind of how I’m at. Yeah. And I understand. Yeah. But I’ve heard people where their dogs have reincarnated. Rebecca: It’s pretty astounding some of the stories. Gissele: Mm-hmm. definitely. And I like what you said in terms of our willingness to let go because. Maybe my dog’s journey is to reincarnate and come back in a different way and have a different experience. Or maybe it’s not, I think it’s that willingness which I in the past have not had. Gissele: I think I it’s like you said, totally normal grieve those experiences. It was my first dog ever. and he was just so special And I didn’t wanna replace that dog and expect another dog to take that place, so, [00:14:00] Rebecca: exactly. Yeah. A lot of people feel guilty about Rebecca: that. Rebecca: And I felt guilty about that too. And I thought, okay, it’s amazing how Zeke, how everything aligned and am I going to love this dog as much as I did? Gus, am I gonna be fair Rebecca: to this? Rebecca: But it’s pretty incredible the gifts and the lessons that Zeke is showing us. And I do, I honestly say, and my husband feels this too, we do see Gus kind of soul dogging Zeke at times. Rebecca: I was told they’re brothers Gissele: Yeah, for sure. Rebecca: You’ll figure Speaker 9: it out. Gissele: How did compassion and love help you through the grieving process? Because every, all of us experience loss, Rebecca: My situation with Gus losing a dog or losing parents by suicide, that really opened up. My [00:15:00] heart opened up my compassion and to see other people suffering who have may have gone through that same trauma, Rebecca: it opens my heart up because I can hold space with that person. sometimes we wanna fix it for the individual, but it’s not our place to fix it. Gissele: did the fact that you don’t believe in death. I mean if you, if you went right away after your loss to find someone to communicate them, you must not believe in death. Gissele: Did that actually help you overcome ’cause to lose parents, to lose a dog that was your soul dog? Those, those are fairly significant losses. Did that awareness help you not feel grief in the same way? And what helped you gain that understanding that maybe there’s a little bit more to life than just this bag of bones in this particular experience and [00:16:00] time? Rebecca: Very good question. Rebecca: Mm-hmm. both of my parents dying by suicide and my brother passing away, I saw my mother at the doorway after she, passed away, I was able to connect with my father and my brother. There were ways that I could connect with him, so that helped me a lot because it gave me a sense that it’s not final. Rebecca: they’re still there. they’re the ones that still wanna help your path, your journey, your life here. And I believe that even though it was a difficult childhood, but I was same time, I was very blessed because it wouldn’t have been able to, do the documentary to help others, all of that. Rebecca: It, it was a curse, but a blessing in the same way. And I’m forever grateful for it. And I, to this day, and until I die, I will always believe [00:17:00] that. My life steps have been interesting situations, but it has just opened up so much more. And different ways to look at death. Rebecca: I do not think death is final Gissele: though. Yeah. And I think that’s one of like the biggest hurdles that humanity has to overcome. I think that our fear of death is so huge that I think if we could realize that there isn’t death, not death in the way that we perceive it to be, that we stop existing and we’re just nothing we think that’ll open up people to be more courageous and to truly live their dreams. Gissele: But I think people’s fear of death can feel really challenging and It’s hard for us to understand that there is much more beyond even if you’ve had spiritual experiences to truly believe that, this life is just one chapter in a larger book of this being that encompasses this [00:18:00] particular body. Rebecca: I’m one of those that I know I’ll reincarnate again. Think about our ancestors. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: they’re here to help. Even on the land of wherever you walk, everywhere you go, the ancestors are there to help. Rebecca: It’s just opening, opening and expanding yourself Gissele: to tune Rebecca: in. Gissele: Yeah, so were you aware before your communication with Gus that you had a life contract as a Shamanic practitioner and healer? Or was it something that you discovered in your communication with Gus, through Sonny or Personally? Rebecca: I’ve always wanted. To do that. you know, it’s interesting you say that ’cause I go back and look in my journals and I have written years and years that that’s what I wanted to [00:19:00] do. And so prior to Gus’s death, it was, 23 in October is when I started working with the shamans Rebecca: And when Gus passed away, he was pushing me on the other side I don’t know how he knew that. You know, here’s the thing. I think dogs, even though we’re, if I was standing in right here, and say, Zeke or Gus was here, they’re so in tune to what we do energetically Rebecca: I’m sure Gus was in tune to what I was doing Gissele: so what are some of the things you’ve learned from your shamanic teachers about sort of this consciousness evolution that human beings seem to be going through? Rebecca: it’s a balance between here and the upper world. Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. We Rebecca: try to walk that balance, and the best way I can explain for myself is just Exude as much light as I can and be the true [00:20:00] person that I am. Of course, there are days where I can be crunchy you know, I’m human, but I can get myself back into balance and I just, Rebecca: I don’t like focusing on all the chaos and bringing a negative energy to that because I think that exacerbates it. I just try to be a positive light and maybe just saying hello to some person you don’t know, a smile on their face, who’s to say you may have made their day. Rebecca: Simple things like that. Gissele: Yeah, and I think you said two key things. Number one is the balance. I think that if we, each of us individually on our journeys found a balance, then I think that then we could create systems that were more balanced than they currently are now, and have leaders that, you know, reflect that balance. Gissele: And you [00:21:00] mentioned the importance of. Little tiny things. People think, well, you know, we gotta fix the war in Gaza. Or, you know, there’s all these other wars that are happening that are not being reported. Just living a life of love and compassion and light and kindness towards others. Like you said has a ripple effect. Gissele: ’cause many people, they’re war within their own homes. Yes. They’re in war, within their own relationships and they, they’re not willing to fix war, fix it Rebecca: themselves. Gissele: Yeah. And they’re not willing to fix that. But then they wanna fix the world, which really doesn’t make a lot of sense because the world really is a mirror of all of us. Gissele: And so fixing ourselves I think would go a long way and, and really. Helping us heal as, as a humanity, right? Rebecca: Yes. And, I also believe we’re having to, go through all this Hmm. To get to the light. [00:22:00] Truly, this is a very phenomenal time right now in history. It certainly feels phenomenal. Rebecca: but, it’s like clearing all the stuff to get to where we really wanna be. I know it’s tough, but Yeah. We just have to stay strong and stay in joy. Try to stay in joy. I go in nature all the time. Mm-hmm. that’s my balanced place. Nature. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: Yeah. And no doubt. Gissele: Yeah, definitely. And what helps you stay in Joy when it feels like sometimes the world is so chaotic, or When our minds are so chaotic. What helps you stay in joy? You mentioned nature. Are there any other things that you do to keep Rebecca: your joy? my dog, my husband, my family. Rebecca: Of course, when I wake up and I look at the sunrise, it’s just an experience that I have and that brings me such joy and [00:23:00] I’m make it a point to do that every day and close the evening. Same way watching the sunset. Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Because it’s very important to me. Gissele: Yeah. appreciating all the beauty, yes. That already exists that’s one of the issues with electronics, right

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  Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba

  Ep. 83 – The Enemies Project: How to Have More Compassion In a Divided World

  Jan 5, 20261h 33m

  Gissele: [00:00:00] was Martin Luther King, Jr. Wright, does love have the power to transform an enemy into a friend. We’re currently working on a documentary showcasing people doing extraordinary things such as loving. Those who are most hurtful in this documentary will showcase extraordinary stories of forgiveness, reconciliation, and transformation. You’d like to find out more about our documentary, www M-A-I-T-R-I-C-E-N-T-R-E com slash documentary.  Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking with Larry Rosen about whether enemies can come together in dialogue. Larry is the founder of a mediation law practice. Through understanding he has helped thousands craft enduring solutions to [00:01:00] crippling conflicts, millions have watched this popular TEDx talk with secret understanding humans whose insights informs the enemy’s project. From 2024, Larry completed writing the novel, the Enemy Dance, posing the question, must the society riven by tribalism descend into war or can it heal itself? Larry is a graduate of UCLA School of Law, where he served as editor of the Law Review and received numerous academic awards. Growing up, Larry was both the bully and the bullied. The one who was cruel and the one who was kind, he was sometimes popular. And sometimes friendless. He had many fist fights with kids who became his friends. He had his very own chair at the principal’s office. He believes that his peacemaking today is born out of the callousness and empathy that he knew as childhood. [00:02:00] Please join me in welcoming Larry. Hi, Larry. Larry: Hi there. That, it’s funny because that la last piece that you read about my, you know, the, the principal’s office that’s on my website, I’ve never had someone read that back to me and it brought me a little bit to tears, like, oh, that poor kid. Yeah, I, I don’t hear that very often. So anyway, Gissele: yeah. Oh, I really loved it when I saw it, and I could relate to it because I’ve also been both. when we hurt other people, we wanna be forgiven, but when people hurt us, you don’t always wanna forgive, right? Mm-hmm. So it gives you the different perspective. I’m so thrilled to have you on the show. And how I actually came to know about your project is, so I’m a professor at a university and I teach research and ethics. And, what I had discovered about my students is that many of them don’t come with the ability to do the critical thinking, to be able to hold both sides. Many of them come thinking there’s gotta be a right answer, and there’s a right way of doing things. Just tell us what the answer is. [00:03:00] And so for my students, I get them to write a paper where they tell me the things they feel really strongly about. Then they’re researching the opposing perspective using credible sources. because trolls are easy to dismiss, right? So credible sources, the opposing perspective, and then they are supposed to, so tell me what are their main points? You know, like why do they believe what they do? And and are you really that different? Right? And then the last part of the paper is. Talk about the emotions you feel and throughout the year I prepare them in terms of being able to handle it. So I teach them mindfulness, I teach them self-compassion so that they can hold because it’s really difficult to hold posing perspective. What? It’s research and ethics.  I do it for my, ’cause one of my research interests is compassion. And so, and I was a director of one of the departments I had was hr. And what I noticed was when people had conflict, it was the inability to regulate themselves, to sit in a [00:04:00] conversation that prevented them from going anywhere. And so what I do in my classes, like I’ll do like a minute, like maybe five minutes, three minutes, right before the start of class, I’ll teach mindfulness or like a self-compassion practice and we talk about it all year. And then at the end of the year they’ll do a, a paper where they do the opposing perspective. Then at the end they talk about the emotions they feel. So, and, and they can do that through music. They could do that through a photograph. They could do that through an art project or they just use text. They say, oh, I felt this. I felt that. And so it was in my students researching for their papers that they encountered your project. And they were blown away. They were so, so happy about it. And I like, I’ve watched the episodes. They were amazing . And so that’s why I wanted to have you on the show. And so I was wondering if you could start by telling the audience a little bit about the Enemies project and how you got inspired to do this work. Larry: So the Enemies Project is a [00:05:00] docuseries where I bring together people who are essentially enemies, people of really dramatically different viewpoints, who pretty much don’t like each other. And so an example is a trans woman and a, a woman who is maga who believes trans people belong to mental institutions a Palestinian and a Zionist Jew and, and lots of other combinations. And the goal is not to debate. There are lots of places where you can see debates and I allow them to argue it out for a few minutes to, to show what doesn’t work. And then I bring them through kind of a different process where they. Understand each other deeply, which basically means live in each other’s viewpoint, really ultimately be able to, like you’re trying to do in your class as well. Have them express each other’s viewpoint. And that is a transforming process for them. Usually when they do it in each other’s presence. And it, you know, it has hiccups which is part of the process, but it goes really [00:06:00] deep. And so ultimately these people who hate each other end up almost always saying, I really admire you. I like you. I would be your friend. And sometimes they say, I love you. And usually they hug and there’s deep affection for each other at the end. And they’re saying to the camera or to, you know, their viewers, like, please be kind to this person. This person’s now my friend. And that is for me important because. Like you probably, and probably most of your listeners, I’m tired of what’s happening in society. I am tired of being manipulated. I think we’re all being manipulated by what I call enemy makers. People who profit from division financially, politically they’re usually political leaders and media leaders. And we’re all being taken. And the big lie at the center of it is that people on the other side, ordinary people on the other side are bad or evil. That’s the, the dark heart lie at the [00:07:00] center of it. And if we believe that we’ll follow these leaders, we’ll follow them because we all want to defeat evil. We all must defeat evil. And so what I’m trying to do in this project is unravel that lie by showing that people on the other side are just us. Yeah. And they too have been manipulated and we’ve been manipulated. So and it’s gone well, it’s gone really well. You know, there have been, we’ve been, we’ve done eight or nine episodes and we have in various forms of media, been seen tens of millions of times in the last five months. And we have, I think, 175,000 followers on different media. And the comments are just really, from my perspective, surprisingly, kind of off the chart powerful. Like this has changed tens of thousands of comments of just this is, this is in. Sometimes I’ve, I cried throughout or it’s actually changed my life. I see people differently. So it’s, it is been really, it’s really great to have that feedback and, and then we have plans for the future, which I can tell you [00:08:00] about later. But yeah, but that’s, that’s the basic background. The reason I got into it I don’t know if you have kids, but for me, kids are the great motivator. You know, the next generation, probably people who don’t have kids also are motivated for the next generation as well. We, I care deeply about what I’m leaving my kids and other people’s kids, you know, they all touch my heart and I, I feel really terrible about the mess we’re believing them in, and I feel terrible about what humanity is inheriting. And so I want to have an influence on that. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things I love about your docuseries is that the intent isn’t to change anyone’s mind. The intent is for people to feel heard and seen, and that is so, so powerful. It makes me think of Daryl Davis about how he went. Do you know the story of Daryl Davis? I don’t like jazz musician. So he’s a black jazz musician who when, since he was little, he wondered why people were racist. So what he did was actually go [00:09:00] to KKK rallies and speak to KKK leaders. Yeah, Larry: I have heard, yeah. Gissele: Yeah. He didn’t mean to change anyone. He just wanted to offer them respect, which you, as you say, is fundamental and just wanted to understand. And in that understanding, he created those conditions too that led people to change . And so I think that’s the same thing that your docuseries is offering. Larry: Absolutely. I mean, you can see it so easily that Yeah, as soon as one person hears the other person, the person who was heard is the one who changes.  you don’t change the other person by telling them your story and by convincing them of anything. It’s when you hear them and hear what their true intention has been and what’s going on in their life, that’s when they change. It’s the fastest road to their change really. But if you go in with that objective, then they won’t change. So there’s kind of a, you know, an irony or a paradox embedded in this, but usually both people move [00:10:00] toward each other, is what happens. Yeah. Gissele: I want the audience to understand how brilliant this is because, I don’t know if you know Deeyah Khan, she’s a documentarian and she interviewed people from the KKK And one of the things we noticed in all those interviews was that many people hate others. They’re people that they’ve never met. They’ve never met people in that group, but they hate them. So, Larry: yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting just to hear that. Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. So how does the Enemies project help challenge misconceptions about groups that have never met each other, carry beliefs about the other? Larry: Well, so far really hasn’t because everybody who we’ve done a show with has met people from the other side. Gissele: Oh, Larry: okay. You know, it’s not like because thus far with the, with I think one or two exceptions, everyone’s been an American. So in, in the United States, everybody’s gonna meet somebody else. they’re not friends with them, they’re not deeply connected with them. But from my perspective it, it doesn’t [00:11:00] matter. You know, you can be from the most different tribes who’ve never met each other, we’re all gonna be the same. the process never differs. we don’t start with politics. My view is that starting with politics, which is how some, some people who try to bring others together to find common ground, start with politics, and that’s not going to work. What I start with is rapport. You know, as soon as you start with something that a person is defensive over, you’re gonna put up, they’re gonna be wearing armor, and they’re going to try to defeat the other person. So we exit that process and we really just help them understand what’s beautiful in each other’s lives, what’s challenging in each other’s lives, and they, there’s no question that as soon as you see what’s beautiful in someone else’s life or challenging, you’re gonna identify with it because you’re gonna have very similar points of beauty and challenge yourself. And then we fold. Politics into it about why politics really are important [00:12:00] to the other person. And we do it in a way where it’s a true exploration. And once that happens, people connect deeply.  so it doesn’t matter from, in my experience, how different the people are, how extreme the people are.  you’re going to be able to bring them together, you know? And so if they haven’t met each other, it’s really interesting what you said that people hate, people a haven’t met, which is like a, such a obvious statement. And it is really profound just to hear that, like, it’s so absurd. Yeah, and I would say that in my experience, the most profound or the deepest sessions are with people who are really dramatically surprised that the other person’s a human being. So if they, if they haven’t met each other, if they haven’t met someone like that, it’s gonna be an easy one. Yeah. ’cause because the shock is gonna be [00:13:00] so huge. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. And Larry: so, and so full, it’s when the people have had experiences with the other side that it’s, that it is, it’s still powerful, but it can be a little bit more intellectual than, than in the heart because when you’re shocked by someone’s humanity, because you couldn’t imagine it at all, it, it really crushes your thoughts about them. Gissele: What I love about the process is that that’s the part you really focus on. You masterfully, are able to get people to really get to the root of their humanity and make that connection and then reengage in the dialogue , which is, is amazing. So who individuals selected and what’s support needs to happen before they can engage in the dialogue? And I ask that because each individual has to be able to hold the discussion. Because sometimes it’s, sometimes it can feel so hurtful, and I’m thinking in particular, even Nancy. So they’ve gotta be able to regulate enough to stay in the dialogue. Otherwise, what [00:14:00] I have seen is people will eject, they’ll fight, they’ll just kind of flee. So what preparation needs to happen and how do you select people? Larry: So on the selection front, it’s different now than when I started, you know, when I started filming about a year ago, I didn’t have any choices. You know, it wasn’t like anyone knew who I was or they had seen my shows, so I would go, I would live in the Bay Area and it’s really hard to find conservatives in the Bay Area, but all the conservatives in, in the San Francisco Bay Area congregate, they have like clubs. Mm-hmm. And so I would go on hikes with, in conservative clubs and I would speak to them and I just would try to find people who were interested. There were no criteria beyond that. Now, having said that, it’s not entirely true. I did interview some people who I just were like, they’re two intellectual, they just wanted to talk about economic issues or stuff, something like that.  and then for liberals, it was actually harder, [00:15:00] believe it or not, to find people in the Bay Area who wanted to participate. I could find tons of liberals and progressives, but they had zero interest in speaking to a conservative person. And I wasn’t sure if that was a Bay Area phenomena, because liberals are so much in the majority, they don’t really care to speak to the other side, whereas the other side wants to be heard, or whether that’s a progressive kind of liberal thing. I have my views that have developed over time, but it was hard to find liberal people. And so really at the beginning it was just people who were willing to do it. There weren’t criteria beyond that. At this point, you know we’ve received some that people know what we’re doing and people want to be on the show and we receive applications and my daughter. Who runs this with me, my daughter Sadie, who’s 20 years old and in college. She is the person who finds people now, and you might have seen the episode a white cop and a black activist. I don’t know if you’ve seen that one, but, you know, she found those two people and they were [00:16:00] great. And the way she found them is she searched the map on the internet. It’s a little different now because by searching people on the internet, we find people who have a little bit of an audience. Mm. And that could be a bit of a problem. But it’s also like so much less time consuming for us. And so. You know, if we had a lot of money, we would spend more money on casting, but we don’t, and so mm-hmm. But we were able to find pretty good people. I’d say the main criteria for me, in addition to them having to have some passion about this, this particular show that they’re on, whether it’s about abortion or Israel, Gaza, the main criteria for me that’s developed is, do I want to hang out with this person? Because if I do, if the person, not whether they’re nice. Okay. Not whether they’re kind. That’s not it. I want them to have passion and I want to like them personally, because if I, it’s not that I don’t like the, some of the people, I like them all, but I don’t [00:17:00] want to hang out with them. If I do, it’s gonna be a great show because I know that they’re gonna be dynamic people and that their passion will flip.  they’re gonna connect in some way and people who are really cordial and kind, they’re not, they’re not going to connect as deeply. The transformation’s not going to be as powerful for them or for the audience. Gissele: Hmm. Really interesting. I wanna touch base on something you said, you know, like that most people listen to debate. And I like Valerie Kaur’s perspective, which is to listen, to understand is to be willing to change your mind and heart. And I also like what you said, which is listening is to love someone. Can you explain what you mean by that? Larry: I think it more is the, it’s received as love than it, than necessarily it’s given as love. It doesn’t mean that you love the other person when you’re listening, but all of us, I would say if we think of the people [00:18:00] that we believe love us the most, they get us. Yeah. We receive it that way and, and they don’t judge us. And so when an enemy does that for you, the thought that they are a bad person melts away. Because if somebody loves us, and that’s the way it’s received, it’s not really an intellectual thing, we just receive it that way. They can’t be a bad person. Like somebody who loves me cannot be a bad person. And so it’s probably the most powerful thing that you can do to flip the feeling of the other side, is to listen to them, not to convince them of anything and to listen to them with curiosity, not just kind of blankly to listen to them without judgment. That’s a real critical piece. And if you do, you know, you can see on the show, it’s just like, you can see the switch flip. It’s really interesting. You can almost watch when it [00:19:00] happens and all of a sudden. The person likes the other person and now they’re listening to each other. It was really interesting. I was on a show one of the episodes is called I forget what it’s called. It’s the Gun

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  Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba

  Ep. 82 – Transforming Grief Into Love with Barry Adkins

  Dec 8, 202548 min

  TRANSCRIPT Gissele: Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking with Barry Adkins after losing his 18-year-old son, Kevin, to alcohol poisoning. Barry saw that he had two choices. He could curl up in the corner and allow himself to become a victim, or he could get out and tell as many people as possible about what happened to his son, Kevin. Barry chose the latter in an effort to raise awareness of the dangers of binge drinking. Barry set out on an Epic 1400 mile journey on foot from Arizona to Montana. His son’s ashes in his backpack, stopping at numerous schools, churches in treatment facilities along the way to share his story. Larry’s presentation describes in powerful detail the night his son died.[00:01:00] The quiet morning that he got the knock on the door and how he came up with the idea to walk from Arizona to Montana.Barry’s message is both powerful inspiration and a warning about the consequences of even one night of binge drinking. Barry has shared his story with over 200,000 students and parents. He has been a featured speaker at numerous high schools, community events, and town hall meetings. Barry has also been featured in numerous media outlets, including Reader’s Digest, the Dr. Gina Show and the Leon Fonte Show. Please join me in welcoming Barry. Hi Barry. Barry: Oh, thanks for having me on. Gissele Gissele: Ah, thank you for being on the show. I was wondering if you could share with the audience a little bit about the story of your son’s passing and how that led you to actually decide to become this powerful messenger on the dangers of pitch drinking. Barry: Well, Gissele, I probably should start by kind of telling you, you know, what led up to that. [00:02:00] Yeah, let’s start with that. So he had just graduated from high school. He struggled in high school. He was actually flunking his English class in March of his senior year in high school. And he needed it for graduation, right? Mm-hmm. And I would always talk to him about it and, you know, he would tell me to quit bothering him about it. He’d take care of it. But at the end of the day, he did graduate, and I remember at his high school graduation ceremony, he gave me a hug and whispered, thanks for not giving up on me, dad. Gissele: Hmm. Barry: And shortly thereafter suffice to say he saved up enough money and I agree to co-sign a loan so he could buy a new truck. And if you have listeners that work at dealerships, I apologize, but I have a healthy dislike for that process, right? Mm-hmm. Because they’re gonna try to sell me something I don’t want or need. He found one of the dealerships, so I gotta go in and sign papers, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. I Barry: sit down in the, the dealerships. You know, in their [00:03:00] office, and the first thing this guy says to me is, how about some life insurance? And I’m like, 18-year-old boys don’t need life insurance. They don’t die. But I was wrong. They do die. He wouldn’t live long enough to make a single payment on that truck. So a few weeks later. I remember him sitting down in our living room and talking about how he couldn’t believe his life was finally beginning and he wanted to move out, and I did my best to discourage him because we honestly never really had any problems with him. His high school principal didn’t even know who he was. I didn’t have any luck talking out of it. So a couple weeks later, his buddy Craig came over and they started moving him out. You know, he’s 18 years old. His definition of moving out was throwing a bed, a tv, and a dresser in the back of his truck. Mm-hmm. I remember him coming back in and he came into the living room and he said something I’ll never forget. He said he wasn’t [00:04:00] gonna take his toothbrush with him. He’d be back tomorrow and grab it. I walked out front with him like I normally do, gave him a hug, told him that, be careful, and I loved him and watched him drive away. It was the last time I saw him alive that night. His friends decided to throw a house warming party for him. Started with a keg of beer and moved on to shots. He left a voicemail for his sister that night talking about how much fun they were having and how drunk he was. After he left that voicemail, he passed out his friends laid him in his bed on his side in case he vomited, but the party was still going on. They actually went in and shaved his head and his legs while he was passed out because he’s just passed out, right? Gissele: Yeah. But Barry: his buddy Craig, was worried about him, kept going back into check on him around 4:00 AM calls started coming into 9 1 1. First calls were difficulty [00:05:00] breathing. Next calls. Not breathing. My son died alone in a hospital. Well, I slept peacefully in my bed. The next morning was Sunday morning. My wife and I are sitting around talking about what we’re not gonna do that day or do that day. Eight 30 in the morning. The doorbell rings. And we’re looking at each other because we weren’t expecting company. And I open the door and I see two police officers and somebody in plain clothes at my front door. Should have been a big red flag, right? It should have been, but I’m that guy. It didn’t even occur to me, Gissele, that something bad had happened. I actually joked with them as they came in thinking this had to have something to do with a dog or a parked car, but they didn’t laugh at any of my jokes. One of the officers in the plain clothes stayed at the front door. The other officer walked in and stood in front of the chair that Kevin had sat in [00:06:00] two weeks before and talked about how his life was finally beginning. He said There had been an accident and your son is dead. We asked who, because we have a number of children, they said it was Kevin and they handed me his driver’s license. Yeah, there is something pretty final about it when a police officer hands you your child’s driver’s license because until that exact moment in time, you’re holding out hope that this is all a big mistake. You’ve misspelled the last name, but once they hand you, your child’s driver’s license, you know he is gone and he is never coming back. Gissele: That must have been so devastating. Barry: Yeah, people say it’s impossible to know what it feels like to lose a child, and they’re right until it happens to [00:07:00] you. It’s a life changing event. There’s no two ways about that. Mm-hmm. Gissele: And so what was the journey between hearing that your son had died to one, you had determined to spread the message to save the lives of other young people. Barry: Well, I’ll tell you a little bit about the process. Honestly, I was angry with God and I told him so I simply didn’t understand why  a kind God would. You know, let my son die. And I tried to bargain with him and said, Hey, back up time, you’re God, take me, let him live. And I don’t think, as a parent, I’m unusual. That’s not, I don’t think that would be an unusual thought for anybody. Right? Gissele: No. Barry: But a couple days later, I had another life changing event. This is a little bit difficult for me to describe, but I’ll do my best. I was [00:08:00] laying in bed, it was about four o’clock in the morning and I was awake, and I just had this sense that someone had just came in the room, you know? Yeah. You have that feeling. Did somebody just walk in behind me or something? And then there was a light. A light I’ve never seen before and I haven’t seen since, and there was a message, and the message was that he didn’t suffer. And something very good would come from this. And I didn’t get a chance to say anything. it’s not words you hear, it’s just things, you know. I, it’s really Gissele: mm-hmm. Barry: I’m not a seance guy or anything like that. I just, that’s what happened. And I’m not here to tell everybody that that made everything okay. ’cause it didn’t. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But it gave me a mission. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right. And then we had to go pick up his [00:09:00] ashes. I remember going down to pick up his ashes and I walked in, you know, into a funeral home. They’ve got, you know, pictures on the wall and they’re playing music in the background. They take me into an office, sit me down in a big comfortable chair, or the desk in front of me. The funeral director walks in. Sets an urn down in front of me, an urn that held all the remain of the kid that I burped. I changed his diapers. I coached all kinds of different sports. I taught him to shoot a gun, swing, a golf club. All the remains of him were sitting in an urn in front of me. And at that moment I knew one thing, and that was that I didn’t want to be a victim. Because the world doesn’t need any more victims. We’ve got plenty already. The world needs people who take something bad and they make something good come from it. Gissele: This [00:10:00] might be a difficult question, so you can skip it if you want to, but what was your wife’s reaction like? Barry: that’s another part about grief. Right. She has been incredibly supportive of everything. Yeah. Was she terrified when I said I wanted to walk to Montana? Yes, we both were, but I knew. That’s what I wanted to do and. I had a lot of people try to talk me out of it. Gissele, right? Well-meaning people that I think they were afraid I was gonna fail. and you get that right? Yeah. Who do you think you are? Right? That’s a long ways of walk. But I had another guy that I talked to that said something that kind of sealed the deal. I really wasn’t gonna get talked out of it, but he said, well, how do you think you’d feel about it in 10 years if you don’t do it? Gissele: Ooh, perfect. Barry: Was it easy? No. [00:11:00] But I knew it didn’t matter. This was, this was what I needed to do. Gissele: So did you, you plan out the whole trip or was it like you were kind of just allowing yourself to be led where your next destination was? Barry: so the idea for the walk, first of all for those. Older individuals in your audience came from the movie Lonesome Dove. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, has Tommy Lee Jones and Robert Duval. That was Kevin’s favorite movie. I won’t give away the ending of the movie. Mm-hmm. But I will tell you that that’s where the idea came from. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But then you gotta figure out, you know, in the movie somebody did something on horseback, not like this, but something similar. Right. I knew I wasn’t gonna do it on horseback initially. I was gonna walk the Continental divide. But then I knew I wouldn’t be able to do the speaking stuff. Okay. So I’m gonna do the speaking stuff now. I need to get some help. Yeah. And I reached [00:12:00] out to people to sponsor me. I got a lot of. Nah, no thanks. But a nonprofit here in town, notmykid.org I spoke to them and they were in they set up all of the speaking engagements, but you can imagine the logistics around this we’re mm-hmm. Pretty challenging because they said, okay, well you gotta tell me what day you’re gonna be in all these towns. Yeah. So I had to give them a schedule. Of how, you know, how many miles am I gonna walk a week? When do I think I’m gonna be in this town? When do I think I’m gonna be in this town? And we got it figured out. I did. Were you a big walker before? I’ve ran marathons. Oh, okay. But walking was a different thing.  one thing to say, I’m gonna go out tomorrow and walk 15 miles, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But it’s the wear and tear mm-hmm. Of every single day. And you can, I kind of [00:13:00] prepared for that by, on the weekends I’d go out and walk, you know, 15 miles each day or 20 miles each day. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: Kind of get a sense of what it was gonna feel like. But it’s. Pretty hard to judge what it’s gonna feel like repetitively. Right? There were ingrown toenails had plantar fasciitis, had knee issues. But I never took a single day off. I ended up walking seven days a week. I found it to be easier to just walk seven days a week. And there’s days I didn’t feel like going, but I always thought, eh, I might feel worse tomorrow. Maybe I better go try. And usually when I got out there I felt better. Gissele: Wow. So how did you find the messaging was received in the conversations that you had with young people because, drinking is kind of part of the culture, if you may. What were some of their comments or questions? [00:14:00] Barry: You know, my messaging has changed a lot through the years. In the beginning, Gissele, I was actually just reading it and I rationalized that, I don’t know if I told you about this before, but I rationalized this by saying, well, Martin Luther King read I Have a Dream Speech. Speaker 2: He read Barry: the whole thing and it was good, right? Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Barry: So I had it written out. But. I had so many places where teachers and principals would come up later and say, I have never seen those kids that quiet ever. And as it evolved, one of the things I started doing was telling the audience, but I’m not here to tell ’em how to live their life. I’m just here to tell you a story. And I really believe for students especially, and everybody, nobody wants to be told how to live their life, right? Who are you to get Speaker 4: up Barry: here? Tell me how to live my life. [00:15:00] I’m just here to tell you a story. And like I said there was some standing ovations in a few of them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But for me, when they’re that quiet you know, something’s going on. Gissele: Definitely. I’m sure I know that you’ve saved some lives  Because I don’t know if kids are often educated on like how to drink, how to learn, how much. Alcohol to take? Like had your son had experience with alcohol before or was that really like the first time that he was out? Barry: He, there was a couple times where I suspected it and that, you know, one of the questions I often get asked is, you know, did you ever talk to him about alcohol? I didn’t talk to him much, any of the kids much about alcohol, but I did about drugs because we have an alcoholic in the family. And he always talked about how stupid he was and how he wasn’t ever gonna let that happen to him. You know, so in hindsight, [00:16:00] should I have done more of that? Yeah. and the question comes up, so when do you start talking to your kids about that? And my answer is, whatever you do, don’t wait until it’s too late. Gissele: Yeah. I think conversations about like. Sex, alcohol, drugs, all of that stuff. Ongoing conversations with children are important, and at the same time, we’re doing the best we can as parents, right? We don’t always anticipate, like you said, your son said that he wouldn’t do that sort of thing, right? Like sometimes you can’t anticipate. But as parents, we go back and question ourselves and say, could I have done that differently? Could I have done that better? What role did self-forgiveness have in your ability to undertake this journey? Barry: It was a big part of it, right? One of [00:17:00] the first things we did was agree that we’re not gonna play the blame game, right? I’m not gonna blame anybody at the party. I’m not gonna blame anyone. But, but the forgiveness part of it. Takes a while, especially forgiving yourself. I heard a pastor describe it best once, ’cause forgiveness is one of the things that’s one of my key takeaways is forgiveness. And what I tell everybody is anger and vengeance is only gonna lead to one thing. Destruction, forgiveness, leads to healing, and sometimes the most important person you need to forgive. Yourself. We all make mistakes. It’s the way you handle it. That really matters. ’cause I can’t change the past. I can only change the future. Gissele: Yeah. Barry: And that takes a long time to come to grips with Gissele. Right? That’s, it does. That’s not something the day after you’re, you’re [00:18:00] there. That’s about 19 years in the rear view mirror for me. Gissele: Yeah, definitely because we as parents put so much pressure on ourselves, we feel it’s our responsibility to keep our children safe. Even though your son had left home, there’s still that sense of,  responsibility. it can feel definitely overwhelming, especially since like the thought is always, well, we’re gonna pass away before our children do. And so it’s not anything we’re gonna have to manage. They’re gonna have to manage our loss. But when it’s the reverse, you’re like, oh, this is not what I prepared for. And what you’re helping us learn is, is. It’s not about trying to avoid the things in life that causes suffering, but alchemizing the difficult moments into something where it could be a positive out of it. That doesn’t diminish the grief. It just helps us not hurt ourselves because I do [00:19:00] feel like path to grieve and the path to blaming and the path to punishment hurts us as much as it hurts the other people as well. Barry: it a hundred percent does. And one of my other key things for takeaways is about adversity. Yeah. Bad stuff happens to everybody. The way you respond to adversity is gonna define your life. And I’m living proof of that. divorces, whatever, you know, make the list, your boyfriend broke up with you, whatever. All of these things happen. And the way you handle them, they’re gonna define your life. They just are, it’s not the A’s and b’s in school generally. Mm-hmm. Its the way you handle adversity. Gissele: I wanna go back to that instance where you heard the voice say that something positive was gonna come. ’cause I’m sure there was a level of, reassurance did that help you rethink the whole concept of life or death [00:20:00] and whether or not things are final? Barry: You know I’m a Christian and we all believe that God is out there. We have to push the believe button. But when something like this happens you know he’s there. Right. And again, that, you know, you’ve heard people describe it, but I can’t describe that light. Gissele: Yeah. Barry: And I just knew. You know, it was God and it was kind of his voice, but I knew God was part of it and for me it moved. Gissele: You mean like Kevin’s voice? Barry: Yeah. Kind of his you know, because it seemed like he was pretty excited about it. Gissele: Hmm Barry: mm-hmm. Right. And it, it moved it from the theoretical to Oh yeah, he’s really there. He really [00:21:00] is. I mean, sometimes it’s you start to wonder if he’s really there, right? You start to wonder, well, is there really something there? And after this I can say, yeah, there’s life there. Gissele: Yeah, and and what you were saying, it takes it from a theoretical ’cause I think often we think of like God out there and we’re over here and we can feel so separate and so alone. And when you look at the state of the world, you wonder why things are the way that they are. And I think there is sort of a grander. Purpose and a grander picture that sometimes we don’t often see. But

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