Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba
Ep. 107 – No More Hiding: Being Authentic and Stopping People Pleasing
TRANSCRIPT Caroline: [00:00:00] welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking about people pleasing, and I have Carolyn Jos, who is a PhD in molecular pathophysiology. She’s a researcher with vast experiencein health and wellbeing in autism. But most importantly, she’s a 47-year-old single mom of two teenagers. She’s lived through death, separation, her own son’s autism diagnosis, illness, burnout, career dreams collapsing, financial insecurity, and the feeling of being a stranger everywhere she goes. And yet people describe her as easygoing, fun to be around, always smiling, strong, and hardworking. From her own words, she says that most of her life she tried to please everyone, her husband, her parents, her employers, her colleagues, her friends, because she thought that she was a natural pleaser. [00:01:00] She said yes to everything, believing that it was helping. Underneath, she had a deep need for love, safety, and belonging. Please join me in welcoming Carolyn. Hi, Caroline: Hi, Gissele. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me Gissele: Yeah, for sure. I, when I heard your story, I really wanted to talk to you ’cause there were elements of the story that I really resonated with. I wanted to start by asking you, where do you think you learned that people-pleasing was the way to get more attention and love? Caroline: That’s a good question . It’s hard to tell. I guess it was when I was pretty young. I have an older sister, she’s three years older than me, and she had some mental issues pretty early on, and it was tough for my parents, and my parents had rough times at that point too because they weren’t employed and they were struggling financially. Caroline: So I used to hide , I used to be the one that for each of my parents would have no concerns. I was doing good at school, I was pretty easygoing [00:02:00] and I, yeah, I had no trouble at all. So I started k- I make myself a bit small and say yes to anything because I didn’t want to add to their burden already. Gissele: So I guess that’s when it started, Yeah, and that’s often very common, right? With children when there’s one sibling that is suffering, the other one usually doesn’t want to add on to the suffering and, but also at the same time then is saying, “My needs are not as important as other siblings’ needs,” right? Which we internalize that messaging. Gissele: We do internalize it because you don’t even realize it that you have some unmet needs. You just, you think that’s, it’s what you get, and you don’t think about it really Gissele: Yeah, and you tend to derive value from taking care of other people’s needs, in particular your parents, right? Especially if you know that they are not coping well. But that’s not really the role of a child. Caroline: Shouldn’t be. Gissele: Have the emotional girth, yeah to take care of your parents’ needs when you’re just learning how to take care of your own needs, right? Gissele: And so I think [00:03:00] that’s where difficulties arise. I wanted to Gissele: read something that you had said to me, which is “No matter how hard I worked, I was never given the same opportunity as those who challenged, complained, or behaved poorly. I watch many of them climb the ladder effortlessly with resumes far thinner than mine, keep devoted partners while being constantly oppositional, or act like divas and still be rewarded. Kindness does not pay off.” And I think many people feel this way, that they feel that they give and give, and that when people are difficult, they’re more likely to attain. What do you think contributed to your perspective that was, that kindness doesn’t pay off? Caroline: what comes to mind now is my career because I am in a transition and I did so I started late my studies, like at 18 years old. At 17, I left my parents’ house and started to what I wanted to do, cinema. So I went to a cinema school, and then I changed to something else, and then eventually I’ve [00:04:00] worked like for five years just like a bartender or in nightclubs or in restaurants. Caroline: And when I wanted to go back to studies, because it was always in the back of my mind I had to go actually in Quebec because in France you can’t really stop and go back. If you can do that, it’s not in, in science at all. So I went in Quebec to start my studies and and I did pretty well considering I didn’t have any background in science before. Caroline: And then I was performing even better, got a master, PhD. My PhD were highly productive, like more, way more than average. But then I got pregnant, and so I had to make a pause and those little pause like that, plus the weird background, that was not what you’re supposed to do when you want to be a, like a, to have a faculty position. Caroline: It was always something that was too heavy on my resume, more than [00:05:00] all the publication and how I had, or the awards or things like that. So it felt like it, a bit unfair, because as I was trying to build a family, it’s it seems that it’s hard to make a family and actually have a, a nice career. Caroline: So I was seeing everyone continuing on their journey, continuing to fill their resume while I was with my sons first and daughter after, taking care of them. And it’s it’s frustrating, and I’ve seen a lot after that, a lot of other PhDs that actually had some positions but with nothing in their CVs. Caroline: But they were the, the student’s of the lab researcher. And so there, there was so many events like that, that I was like… and I was struggling to find a job. I never found a job that would actually fit my curriculum, my, my studies. It was always to take something below what I am able to do. Caroline: Yeah, that’s, that was hard. And in terms of relationships I think it’s the same pattern [00:06:00] pretty much to see I struggle. I left my husband when I arrived in, in Mountain for many different issues. We were very good friends. It’s not it’s not a between, It’s just different personalities, but it’s not that he was awful or nothing. Caroline: It’s just I needed a time off, but so I… And I never really found anyone so far. But I’ve seen a lot of couples that they cannot. It looks like they hate each other, but they stay together, and no, they don’t hate each other. They actually love each other, which is beautiful. Caroline: But they… I, sometimes I don’t know how he or she is doing that. How can you hold that? As everybody’s, they are always fighting or… But it’s still love. It’s just a different way of communicating it, Gissele: So I wanted to talk about what you had mentioned about the gap in the resumes because it’s so real. It’s almost like you’re punished for taking a break from your Gissele: career. There are some people that can’t, that don’t take breaks between their career, but if you’re a mother that, that can be [00:07:00] difficult. If you’re out of the system for a while, like for example, if you tried self-employment and then you’re coming back into employment, it’s hard to justify the tran- it’s almost like you have to justify the transition. You might just want something different. You wanted to try something else, and then you’re decided to come back into the workplace. But I don’t know if it’s that we believe that it’s a negative thing and therefore that’s the experience, but I know exactly what you’re Gissele: talking about in terms of gaps in terms of the resume. And the other thing I wanted to mention was, longevity isn’t necessarily a mark of a good relationship. Just because you’re in a relationship a long time doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good relationship. I think relationships are changing as the, as we’re realizing more and more, as we become more authentically ourselves, as we realize more and more what we wanted, I think our- the perspective on marriage is changing. Gissele: Think about it. Like I got married when I was 27, right? And so the 27 me is very different than the Gissele: [00:08:00] me that is here now, right? And so we don’t make decisions for for the rest of your life, so you constantly, you and your partner have to constantly keep Gissele: working on it. You have to be changing. Gissele: You have to be keep, making the same commitment, making the same choice, right? To s- to stick together, to grow together because you’re not the same person that you were when you were 27. And so the whole belief that if it didn’t last long, it didn’t work isn’t necessarily true. It’s just people change and they grow, and so I think people are starting to understand that marriage is a constant commitment, and the reasons we marry are different than they used to be Gissele: as Caroline: That’s true Gissele: Because we used to marry for, economic security, and especially women. And now women have way more options, which is why you’re seeing a big decline in marriage, right? I wa- I also wanted to go back to, so you survived a rare aggressive type of cancer and it [00:09:00] was like a harbinger. Gissele: It was like a ringing bell to let you know that- You were living a life that wasn’t meant to be yours. And so you decided that there was no more forced compliance, no more accepting less than I deserved. And so you began to align your actions with your core values, which meant saying no. For a, surviving or overcoming people pleaser, how was the process of saying no? What was it like in the beginning, and what are some of the things you found as you started to say no? Caroline: And I actually am realizing that maybe I started to say no when I got separated from my husband just a few years before that. S- say no, it’s it’s isolating at the beginning at least. Because y- you want to avoid to say no. You don’t want to do everything that people wants you to do necessarily or… Caroline: But that’s, there’s the first step of avoidance, avoiding any questions so you don’t have to say no. And then it’s just y- I have a lot of [00:10:00] very, very good friends, I’m very blessed for that. And so I know that I don’t even have to tell them I don’t want to do that. They k- Caroline: they guess, I think. Caroline: But it’s more in the workplace that I started to say that’s not why you hired me. We had this arrangement, so I’m, I don’t see the value of doing what you’re asking me, because it’s a waste of time for me and a waste of money for you, so just use my friends instead.” And that didn’t go well at all. Caroline: So it, it’s still something I’m learning to do, but I need to do it maybe differently. Unless I just get self-employed and stop being in the workplace with bosses and all that. I guess it’s probably the best option for me, and I do need my freedom. So yeah. Gissele: Yeah it, so it can be challenging, first of all, for the people in our lives when you start saying no if they’re used to you Gissele: saying yes, [00:11:00] right? To, for you to say no, you’re changing the rules of the game. Hey, wait a minute, you’re the people pleaser. You’re supposed to please me. Now you’re changing. Gissele: You’re flipping the script, right? So that, it can be difficult for people in your life. What you mentioned about the workplace, it’s so interesting because people of my generation were taught that you don’t say no. They were taught that it’s such an honor, and you’re so valued if you just add more work or are given different tasks without any additional pay. It’s you’re looked highly on. And but now we’re living in a time where that’s no longer acceptable, where people have some people need two, three jobs. No, you’re not gonna be doing unpaid labor. No, you’re not gonna go just for a value-based compensation, like a pat on the back. No, that doesn’t work anymore. And so people re- need real money, like real compensation value to be able to pay their bills and be able to get food and all of those things that they need for their family, but saying no in the workplace is you’re seen as difficult, not collaborative. [00:12:00] But organizational leaders and managers say no all the Gissele: time, Caroline: that’s the thing. And I don’t know if it’s my ADHD brain or but I have some issues with the, those unbalanced decision powers. And I did not say no per se. I was trying to say, “Okay, maybe it’s not the best use of my time and then your money, because I would be way more efficient and make way more progress on on this field, which is the thing we agreed on. Caroline: And maybe this could be done by someone, like a coordinator or someone that is already there, that is already doing this type of work.” But yeah that, that didn’t go through already. So it’s not really blocking any discussion or, and saying no like loud and clear. It was more like trying to negotiate, which I was never doing before. Caroline: I was just saying, “Okay, yeah, sure. We’ll do that.” Now I negotiate, but it’s still super [00:13:00] complicated. I guess it depends the hierarchy level of the person you’re talking to. It depends also on the personalities you have in front of you. And being seen as someone that will always say yes anyway makes you the, the, the person to go to for anything and everything. Caroline: So when you change that dy- dynamic people are like, “Oh, wait a minute. That’s not fun anymore. Maybe we don’t need you anymore.” Yeah Gissele: Yeah. And you mean you mentioned that the changing the rules of the game in terms of them, they hired you for a specific purpose, but now they wanna give you a different purpose that may not be what you were Gissele: looking for. Gissele: So when you started saying no, you said, “No, I won’t do what you’re asking because I deserve better. No, I won’t agree with something that is unfair. No, you won’t define my worth.” That was basically you negotiating your worth, right? A no to someone else is a yes to you. However, experienced being fired, Gissele: right? No notice, no explanation. How did that feel after [00:14:00] you… What you, ’cause what you were trying to do is reaffirm your worth, right? What was the impact of that firing Caroline: That was very difficult because then y- eventually you feel worthless. You feel, okay if it’s not my strengths and my expertise, my skills that they want, if that is not worth anything for them, then what can I bring? Pretty much, I can bring a lot of things, but not to the level that I could work on my specific field or ex- with my specific expertise. Caroline: So it, it really just denied the importance of the work I’m doing, which is research on the health of autistics. And at the same time it was very hard for my sense of self and like a, a big hit on my dignity. I was felt betrayed ’cause I trusted, the, this workplace and, yeah, just like you’re being swept out because you don’t have any value for us if [00:15:00] you change, if you’re more, affirming. Caroline: It was really hard. And it’s still a little bit, but getting over it. But it’s, it was disappearing pretty much. And I always feel that in my life to feel invisible. But with that, being fired is something heavy. I’ve never experienced that in my life. I’ve always has too much work, and as I can’t say no, most of the time in my life I had one, two, three, four, four jobs at the same time because people… Caroline: I never had to search for a job even, people were coming to me, “Hey, would you like to do this?” And being out like that, s- that is a very strange feeling, very painful feeling. Gissele: thank you for sharing that. As a person who related to your experience, I know that I derive my personal value from my performance, right? So I, I was like you, I’m highly educated and having, a sense of worth, a sense of either a job or a profession that was successful [00:16:00] really gave me that sense of worth. Gissele: So if you don’t have that, then what do you Gissele: have, right? in this society, we value ourselves by how much we can do, what we do for others, what our careers are, how successful we are, how much money we have. All of these are markers that we’ve given ourselves as proxies that we’re Gissele: worthy. But in the absence of those, are we still lovable? And we are, absolutely. But you lose your footing for a little bit, right? Caroline: yes, definitely Gissele: Yeah. And it makes it difficult. For me, it wasn’t so much… it was about changing careers and not seeing the success that I thought I Gissele: would have, right? And so for years and years having that financial insecurity and not seeing the uptake that I thought I would take because I’m doing something that is my passion, right? Gissele: And so I’m following my higher guidance, I’m following my passion, and I’m not seeing any results. And in fact, there’s a lot of financial instability, [00:17:00] like you mentioned. And so to see that, it really eroded my own self-worth. It really did. Because I thought, ” What if this isn’t gonna work? Gissele: Have I put my family at risk?” Like, all of these questions I had and it made me really doubt myself, and I was always a very confident person in terms of my passions and following what my heart did and doing really well. And so when, like you, you were successful in the past, when things stopped working, it makes you feel really scared. Caroline: Very and it’s talk about confidence, and I was very confident too, like for, forever because I know I can do, not anything, but I can do a lot of things. I was always thinking that even if I lost a job or had to change a career, I could pivot and do something else, and I would be fine. Caroline: It’s just that I learned to actually love research and I don’t want to give up, and I’m not someone that gives up [00:18:00] easily and now I have to give it up somehow because I need to I need to make a living. So I need to think about, okay, what I’m gonna do. But I want to take the time it takes though. Caroline: I know the financial security is something that scared me the first thing that scared me actually because I didn’t want to do like my parents did, trying to give it, give up their job and start to start their own company and then they bankrupt and then we were poor under, all my childhood and after. Caroline: So I don’t want that for my children, but I know that they have a father that is fine, that has a great position and that will always provide for them. And that’s, yeah. So I think I can take the time it takes to really look at what I want to do exactly and not jump onto the first thing because I really need money now. Caroline: I think I can… Struggle for a while is fine, but after that I want to, stop changing. I would like to just settle. When I had my cancer with, the, the statistic were not [00:19:00] good
