Joy Lab | navigate stress, anxiety, & depression with the science of joy

Joy Lab isn't your typical happiness podcast. We focus on navigating mental health experiences like depression, anxiety, stress, grief, and burnout with the science of joy. You can expect a blend of the best cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) techniques, positive psychology practices, stress management techniques, and mindfulness skills. Each month we focus on building one Element of Joy such as gratitude, self-compassion, confidence, self-acceptance, humility, and self-connection. It's a holistic approach to mental health that's refreshingly free of finger-wagging and toxic positivity and full of practical, whole-person support that's empowering and actually helps. Joy Lab is hosted by two leaders in mental health, Henry Emmons, MD (integrative psychiatrist) and Aimee Prasek, PhD (mental health researcher).You'll probably find this podcast most useful if any of these feel familiar:* You feel caught in cycles of worry, anxiety, or panic attacks.* Stress has settled into your body, w

Joy Lab | navigate stress, anxiety, & depression with the science of joy is a health podcast hosted by Unknown Host, with 285 episodes on record and a Required Pod Score of 80. PitchCentric scores this show on Booking Probability, Listen Score, and live audience signals refreshed every 24 hours.

Unknown Host hosts Joy Lab | navigate stress, anxiety, & depression with the science of joy, a health show with 285 episodes published.

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  Episode #286

  It's OK to Be Wrong: Releasing Perfectionism & Building the Skill of Knowing Enough [286]

  Sep 16, 202622 min

  What does it means to know enough, and why do so many of us have our sense of self-worth tangled up with the need to appear certain, informed, and never wrong? The common obstacles of perfectionism, yearning for power and to feel "special," along with anxiety are fueled by a world of constant information, public scrutiny, and the subtle pressure to prove our intelligence. It makes a tough environment to come back to the wisdom Socrates shared 2,500 years ago: real wisdom lives in knowing what you don't know. The good news: getting comfortable with being wrong is a practice, not a personality trait. And the more you do it (starting small and safe), then the more your nervous system learns that doubt isn't dangerous. About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek. Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible). Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube Full transcript here Sources and Notes for Our Element of Enoughness: Related Joy Lab Episodes: Ep. 215: Are You Curious to Learn or Confirm? Ep. 285: Why Doing Enough Is Enough + Why Perfectionism Predicts Burnout, Depression, & Anxiety, Not Performance Ep. 284: Having Enough: Why Acquiring More Will Never Fill the Hole in Your Self-Worth Ep. 283: You Are Enough: The Science and Practices of Enoughness Bellam, S., Curran, T., Hill, A. P., & Stoeber, J. (2025). Perfectionism and work performance: A meta-analysis. https://doi.org/10.1111/joop.12570 Carver, C. S., Lawrence, J. W., & Scheier, M. F. (1999). Self-discrepancies and affect: Incorporating the role of feared selves. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167299025007002 Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). The costly pursuit of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.131.3.392 Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). Reaping the benefits of pursuing self-esteem without the costs? Reply to Schmuck and Sheldon (2004), Sheldon et al. (2004), Pyszczynski et al. (2004), and Kernis (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.430 Crocker, J., Karpinski, A., Quinn, D. M., & Chase, S. K. (2003). When grades determine self-worth: Consequences of contingent self-worth for male and female engineering and psychology majors. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.85.3.507 Crocker, J., & Wolfe, C. T. (2001). Contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.108.3.593 Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Avoiding death or engaging life as accounts of meaning and culture: Comment on Pyszczynski et al. (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.473 Freudenberger, H. J. (1974). Staff burn-out. Journal of Social Issues, 30(1), 159–165. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1974.tb00706.x Harari, D., Swider, B. W., Bujold Steed, L., & Breidenthal, A. P. (2018). Is perfect good? A meta-analysis of perfectionism in the workplace. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000324 Hewitt, P. L., & Flett, G. L. (1991). Perfectionism in the self and social contexts: Conceptualization, assessment, and association with psychopathology. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.60.3.456 Higgins, E. T. (1987). Self-discrepancy: A theory relating self and affect. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.94.3.319 Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2005). Positive adjustment to threatening events: An organismic valuing theory of growth through adversity. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.9.3.262 Kernis, M. H. (2005). Measuring self-esteem in context: The importance of stability of self-esteem in psychological functioning. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2005.00359.x Kirkpatrick, L. A., & Ellis, B. J. (2001). An evolutionary-psychological approach to self-esteem: Multiple domains and multiple functions. In G. J. O. Fletcher & M. S. Clark (Eds.), Blackwell handbook of social psychology: Interpersonal processes (pp. 411–436). Blackwell. Leary, M. R. (2000). Sociometer theory and the pursuit of relational value: Getting to the root of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1080/14792772043000045 Maslach, C. (1981). The measurement of experienced burnout. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.4030020205 Park, L. E., & Crocker, J. (2005). Attachment styles and contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167205277030 Pyszczynski, T., Greenberg, J., Solomon, S., Arndt, J., & Schimel, J. (2004). Why do people need self-esteem? https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.435 Schaufeli, W. B., Leiter, M. P., & Maslach, C. (2009). Burnout: 35 years of research and practice. https://doi.org/10.1108/13620430910966406 Lynn Twist's Book: The Soul of Money Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I feel like I have to know everything and never be wrong... and how do I stop? A: This episode traces the drive to perform knowledge back to things like anxiety about judgment and the desire for specialness, along with the amygdala hijack that makes being wrong feel like a survival threat, and offers a practical strategy: exposure. Practice being wrong in small, safe ways until your nervous system recalibrates and realizes it isn't catastrophic. Q: Can you actually be too certain? Isn't confidence a good thing? A: Being too certain can be detrimental. This episode unpacks the differences between genuine knowledge, intellectual humility, and the performance of certainty for reasons outside of genuine knowledge. Key moments: [00:30] Setting the scene: Athens, 2,500 years ago — a friend asks the Oracle of Delphi who is the wisest person in the city [02:30] Socrates' conclusion: maybe he was wiser because he knew what he didn't know, and didn't shy away from that unknowing; kept asking questions [03:30] Intellectual humility: holding your beliefs loosely, staying curious, genuinely believing you might be wrong [04:00] The Enoughness layer: the belief that you have to prove your knowledge to be worthy; knowing more makes you enough [05:00] It's exhausting to feel like you need to know all the answers, to be right all the time — and none of us can actually succeed at it [05:30] Two drivers: anxiety (fear of being judged for being wrong) and the desire for power or certainty as protection from vulnerability [07:00] The desire for specialness: inflating self-esteem through the performance of knowing it all [07:30] Research on narcissism and conspiratorial thinking: conspiracy theories offer the feeling of uniqueness — "I know something you don't" [10:00] Henry: a small pitch for narcissism — a little bit isn't bad; we all want to feel special sometimes; full-blown narcissists wouldn't be listening to this anyway [11:00] The belonging need: we don't have to stand out to belong, but we do need to be seen as worthy of inclusion — so we avoid sticking our neck out and being wrong in front of others [11:30] Social media amplifies this: anything put out publicly can be validated or challenged — rarely challenged without feeling diminished [14:00] The internet requires a new kind of resilience and emotional regulation we haven't trained before in human history — much of which is what Joy Lab works on [15:30] Being wrong is so often worse in our heads than in real life — especially when we're willing to admit it; humility actually strengthens connection [17:30] Henry: when the fear of being wrong tips into clinical anxiety or mood problems — perfectionism creates a downward spiral [18:00] The amygdala hijack: the midbrain can't distinguish between a perceived threat (being wrong in front of others) and a real physical threat — fight or flight activates as though lives are at stake [18:30] How to get out: exposure — practice being wrong in small, safe ways; when your nervous system learns it isn't catastrophic, it recalibrates [20:30] Good news: we have many opportunities every day to practice being wrong — the more you check in, the more you notice them [21:00] The Experiment for this episode works on getting more comfortable with being wrong If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts! Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more . You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org . Find more mental health resources here .

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  Episode #285

  Why Doing Enough Is Enough + Why Perfectionism Predicts Burnout, Depression, & Anxiety, Not Performance [285]

  Sep 9, 202623 min

  Do you feel like you have to prove your worth through the shear amount of work you do or prove your value by making sure you're seen as busy, always hustling, and super productive? Do you feel burned out, overwhelmed with work, or simply feeling that you're just doing too much? If so, this is the "doing enough" episode, and we hope you come away acknowledging that you're wired to do enough (often more than enough) and that the pressure to do more is something we layer on top of that natural wiring, and it is likely more harmful than good. We'll dig into perfectionism and how it can push us into doing too much and its association with anxiety and depression. We'll also explore more of the burnout research and how perfectionism and the myth of productivity are related to burnout. Importantly, we'll talk about some practical strategies to help you identify what might be driving you to do too much and how you can soften your expectations. Additionally, feeling burned out and overwhelmed with work can have less to do with the amount of work you're doing and more to do with the lack of support from your employer and other key factors related to burnout. This is that canary in the coal mine phenomenon. If you can relate to that, we also have some strategies to consider. About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek. The podcast is best paired with the Joy Lab App . Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible) Full transcript here Sources and Notes for Our Element of Enoughness: Related Joy Lab Episodes: Ep. 223: Breaking Free From Pathological Productivity Ep. 206: Time Poverty & Busyness: Too Busy to Be Well Ep. 201: Balance Perfectionism & Do-Too-Muchism Bellam, S., Curran, T., Hill, A. P., & Stoeber, J. (2025). Perfectionism and work performance: A meta-analysis. https://doi.org/10.1111/joop.12570 Carver, C. S., Lawrence, J. W., & Scheier, M. F. (1999). Self-discrepancies and affect: Incorporating the role of feared selves. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167299025007002 Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). The costly pursuit of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.131.3.392 Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). Reaping the benefits of pursuing self-esteem without the costs? Reply to Schmuck and Sheldon (2004), Sheldon et al. (2004), Pyszczynski et al. (2004), and Kernis (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.430 Crocker, J., Karpinski, A., Quinn, D. M., & Chase, S. K. (2003). When grades determine self-worth: Consequences of contingent self-worth for male and female engineering and psychology majors. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.85.3.507 Crocker, J., & Wolfe, C. T. (2001). Contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.108.3.593 Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Avoiding death or engaging life as accounts of meaning and culture: Comment on Pyszczynski et al. (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.473 Freudenberger, H. J. (1974). Staff burn-out. Journal of Social Issues, 30(1), 159–165. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1974.tb00706.x Harari, D., Swider, B. W., Bujold Steed, L., & Breidenthal, A. P. (2018). Is perfect good? A meta-analysis of perfectionism in the workplace. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000324 Hewitt, P. L., & Flett, G. L. (1991). Perfectionism in the self and social contexts: Conceptualization, assessment, and association with psychopathology. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.60.3.456 Higgins, E. T. (1987). Self-discrepancy: A theory relating self and affect. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.94.3.319 Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2005). Positive adjustment to threatening events: An organismic valuing theory of growth through adversity. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.9.3.262 Kernis, M. H. (2005). Measuring self-esteem in context: The importance of stability of self-esteem in psychological functioning. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2005.00359.x Kirkpatrick, L. A., & Ellis, B. J. (2001). An evolutionary-psychological approach to self-esteem: Multiple domains and multiple functions. In G. J. O. Fletcher & M. S. Clark (Eds.), Blackwell handbook of social psychology: Interpersonal processes (pp. 411–436). Blackwell. Leary, M. R. (2000). Sociometer theory and the pursuit of relational value: Getting to the root of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1080/14792772043000045 Maslach, C. (1981). The measurement of experienced burnout. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.4030020205 Park, L. E., & Crocker, J. (2005). Attachment styles and contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167205277030 Pyszczynski, T., Greenberg, J., Solomon, S., Arndt, J., & Schimel, J. (2004). Why do people need self-esteem? https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.435 Schaufeli, W. B., Leiter, M. P., & Maslach, C. (2009). Burnout: 35 years of research and practice. https://doi.org/10.1108/13620430910966406 Sonnetag, S., & Fritz, C. (2014). Recovery from job stress: The stressor-detachment model as an integrative framework. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.1924 Tricia Hersey's website Lynn Twist's Book: The Soul of Money Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I feel guilty or anxious when I'm not being productive, even when I know I need a break? A: We are naturally wired to engage and do, and then we layer on extra expectations, perfectionism, and the belief that our worth is tied to visible busyness. It's essential to first bring awareness to what's driving us to do more than enough. This episode offers strategies for that mindful awareness and ways to come back into more balance. Q: Is burnout really just about working too many hours, or is there something deeper going on? A: Dr. Christina Maslach's six-factor burnout model shows that most of what drives burnout has nothing to do with logged hours. Lack of control, insufficient rewards, breakdown of community, absence of fairness, and value conflicts are additional factors. This episode explains how we have to look at the big picture (rather than just blaming ourselves) to create real change. Key moments: [00:00] Welcome — Enoughness Ep 3: doing enough [00:30] The two-week vacation thought experiment: what comes up in your body when you imagine truly stepping away? [01:00] Itching to check email just in case, guilt about doing nothing, loss without a to-do list — all very normal, and worth examining [01:30] We are already wired to do enough — the pressure to do more is something we layer on top of that natural drive [02:00] We attach our doing to our worth, and to what others can see: always busy, always achieving, always on [03:00] Henry: email changed everything — from 9-to-5 availability to always-on; the inbox that empties for 10 minutes and then refills [04:30] Text messaging took it further — the expected response speed keeps accelerating. The result: a state of constant alertness, constantly scanning for something important, hard to resist the impulse to check [05:30] We've trained ourselves to react immediately to the relentless drumbeat of more — mindfulness emphasizes being over doing, but there's so much pulling against it [06:30] 150 years ago, news took weeks to cross the country by horse, ship, or foot — always-on is entirely new territory for our nervous systems. We apologize for a three-day email delay — when it would have taken six weeks round-trip to even get the apology back [07:30] Recap of Hewitt and Flett's three perfectionism types; self-oriented perfectionism connects most directly to "doing enough" [08:00] Even self-oriented perfectionism doesn't operate in a vacuum — we write stories about how others are judging our response times [09:30] Henry: perfectionism usually starts in childhood — good report card means a parent is proud; fitting in becomes the price of admission to belonging; We internalize: "I am worthy if I accomplish enough; if I perform well enough; if I don't fail" [10:30] Perfectionism is a losing game because the standard always moves — there's always another rung on the ladder [11:00] Did high achievers get there because of perfectionism? The evidence says they likely got there in spite of it [11:30] 2018 meta-analysis: "Is Perfect Good?" — teases apart excellence-seeking vs. failure-avoiding perfectionism [12:00] Excellence-seeking: weak, inconsistent relationship with performance — small effect with many disclaimers [12:30] Failure-avoiding: did not predict improvements in performance; 2025 Bellam et al. meta-analysis: overall relationship inconclusive [13:00] What perfectionism does predict: moderate-to-large associations with anxiety, depression, and burnout [13:30] You can strive for greatness, have high expectations, work really hard — and that is very different from believing your worth is at stake if you don't hit perfect [14:00] Henry: perfectionism predicts suffering, not performance — reviewing your work at midnight for the third time out of terror is not diligence; it's hurting yourself [14:30] Aimee: doing enough is enough — this is not about shirking responsibility; personal drive and responsibility can exist without perfectionism [15:30] Dr. Christina Maslach's six factors of burnout: work overload, lack of control, insufficient rewards, breakdown of community, absence of fairness, value conflicts [16:00] Most of burnout has nothing to do with logged hours — the other five factors point to things much deeper [16:30] The canary-in-a-coal-mine analogy: if the bird stops singing, it's not because the bird isn't resilient enough; it's a sign something is wrong with the mine [17:00] We are the canaries — and we need to ask: what is happening in the mine? Does it ignore the conditions and just tell you to fly faster? [17:30] The most toxic mines are built from feelings of not being enough — and some of those mines were built for us and we're expected to fly in them anyway [18:30] Henry: the canary doesn't belong in a coal mine; we've built a toxic personal mine where worth is entirely dependent on what we produce or achieve [19:00] The solution isn't to make yourself stronger or tougher — it's to change the mine, or get out of it [19:30] Psychological detachment: Sonnentag and Fritz research — people who mentally detach during off-hours report less exhaustion and more energy the next day [20:00] Being physically home but mentally rehearsing tomorrow's problems means you don't get restored the same way — the Experiment will work with this [20:30] Rest is your right and your biological need — in a culture of side hustles, grindsets, and constant optimization, it is essential [21:00] Tricia Hersey, "The Nap Bishop": "Rest is resistance" — it's what will fight some of those toxic mines [21:30] Henry: choosing to rest is choosing to say "my worth isn't measured by what I produce; I'm enough even when I'm doing nothing" [21:45] "Sometimes I sits and think, and sometimes I just sits" — sometimes putting it in simple terms is exactly what's needed [22:00] Head to JoyLab.coach to access the Experiments — this week's works on psychological detachment and sitting [22:30] Closing wisdom from Tricia Hersey: "Rest is not a reward or luxury reserved for those who make a certain amount of money. Rest is a right. Rest is our divine right, and no capitalist agenda can have access to it." If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts! Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more . You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org . Find more mental health resources here .

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• 

  Episode #283

  Having Enough: Why Acquiring More Will Never Fill the Hole in Your Self-Worth [283]

  Sep 2, 202620 min

  It's easy to feel like you don't have enough; it's the message we constantly receive through media and advertisements. It's the message that once you have this thing, or make this much, then you will be happy... all of your dreams will come true! The truth is actually the opposite as this kind of grasping for more is associated with mood problems, anxiety, and stress. We'll dig into this trap of "having enough" and how we can break free from it and embrace our enoughness. About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek. The podcast is best paired with the Joy Lab App . Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible). Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube Full transcript Sources and Notes for Our Element of Enoughness: Related Joy Lab Episodes: Ep. 236: The Power of Good Enough Parenting & Calling Out Our Moms Our Grief series starts here: Ep. 252: The Grief of What Should Have Been & The Loss of Not Being Truly Seen (Grief Recovery & Healing Series part 5) More on Savoring: Ep. 44: Savoring Your Past Without Ruminating or Romanticizing Ep. 45: Mindfulness, Savoring the Present Moment, & Overcoming FOBO (it's kinda like FOMO) Ep. 46: Savoring the Future: A Refreshing Skill to Boost Mood & Help Navigate Depression Ep. 47: Mindsets & Mental Health: How Thoughts About Yourself & The World Impact Your Wellbeing Ep. 197: How Savoring Shifts Your Mood, Mindset, & Behaviors Ep. 198: Unfractured Focus: Mastering the Art of Savoring in a Distracted World Our Authenticity series starts here: Ep. 216: Unmasking Your True Self: Exploring Authenticity and Awe Ep. 268: Humility Can Be Stressful... But Worth It for Mental Health Ep. 273: How to Build Confidence (When You Don't Feel Confident Yet) Bellam, S., Curran, T., Hill, A. P., & Stoeber, J. (2025). Perfectionism and work performance: A meta-analysis. https://doi.org/10.1111/joop.12570 Carver, C. S., Lawrence, J. W., & Scheier, M. F. (1999). Self-discrepancies and affect: Incorporating the role of feared selves. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167299025007002 Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). The costly pursuit of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.131.3.392 Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). Reaping the benefits of pursuing self-esteem without the costs? Reply to Schmuck and Sheldon (2004), Sheldon et al. (2004), Pyszczynski et al. (2004), and Kernis (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.430 Crocker, J., Karpinski, A., Quinn, D. M., & Chase, S. K. (2003). When grades determine self-worth: Consequences of contingent self-worth for male and female engineering and psychology majors. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.85.3.507 Crocker, J., & Wolfe, C. T. (2001). Contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.108.3.593 Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Avoiding death or engaging life as accounts of meaning and culture: Comment on Pyszczynski et al. (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.473 Freudenberger, H. J. (1974). Staff burn-out. Journal of Social Issues, 30(1), 159–165. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1974.tb00706.x Harari, D., Swider, B. W., Bujold Steed, L., & Breidenthal, A. P. (2018). Is perfect good? A meta-analysis of perfectionism in the workplace. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000324 Hewitt, P. L., & Flett, G. L. (1991). Perfectionism in the self and social contexts: Conceptualization, assessment, and association with psychopathology. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.60.3.456 Higgins, E. T. (1987). Self-discrepancy: A theory relating self and affect. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.94.3.319 Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2005). Positive adjustment to threatening events: An organismic valuing theory of growth through adversity. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.9.3.262 Kernis, M. H. (2005). Measuring self-esteem in context: The importance of stability of self-esteem in psychological functioning. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2005.00359.x Kirkpatrick, L. A., & Ellis, B. J. (2001). An evolutionary-psychological approach to self-esteem: Multiple domains and multiple functions. In G. J. O. Fletcher & M. S. Clark (Eds.), Blackwell handbook of social psychology: Interpersonal processes (pp. 411–436). Blackwell. Leary, M. R. (2000). Sociometer theory and the pursuit of relational value: Getting to the root of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1080/14792772043000045 Maslach, C. (1981). The measurement of experienced burnout. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.4030020205 Park, L. E., & Crocker, J. (2005). Attachment styles and contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167205277030 Pyszczynski, T., Greenberg, J., Solomon, S., Arndt, J., & Schimel, J. (2004). Why do people need self-esteem? https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.435 Schaufeli, W. B., Leiter, M. P., & Maslach, C. (2009). Burnout: 35 years of research and practice. https://doi.org/10.1108/13620430910966406 Lynn Twist's Book: The Soul of Money Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I keep thinking that getting more money, success, or recognition will finally make me feel okay? And why doesn't it ever work? A: This episode explains the psychology of contingent self-worth and the neuroscience of hedonic adaptation: when you stake your value on external things, the bar always moves, the reward always fades faster than expected, and there is never enough; understanding the mechanism is the first step to stepping off the treadmill. Q: Someone I love seems to measure their worth entirely by what they have or what they've achieved — how do I understand that, and is there a way out? A: Henry's story of his patient and Aimee's story of her father both illuminate how the having-more strategy develops and why it becomes impervious to reason; this episode also names the false-self as the construction that drives the endless proving, and points to the inner compass that is always there underneath it. The good news is that there is a way out and this series explores those paths to enoughness. Key moments: [00:00] Welcome — Enoughness part 2: having enough [00:30] Having enough isn't really about the amount — it's the belief that acquiring this much will make the bad feelings go away [01:00] Conditional acceptance and love: growing up having to produce, perform, or prove before being given love — the untended grief that drives the proving [01:30] Francis Weller: what happens when we aren't born into a village with a full, joyous welcome of our gifts [02:00] Henry's story: a venture capital executive, clearly depressed, sent to therapy against his will [04:00] CBT couldn't break through — his thinking was so distorted he was impervious to reason; he clung to the belief that he added no value whatsoever [05:00] The lesson Henry learned viscerally: it is futile to try to fill a hole in self-worth by accumulating money or anything else we value [05:30] If you believe external achievement proves your worth, there will never, ever be enough — and what a drain on one's energy and vitality [06:00] Aimee's father: grew up needing to grasp for more, family lived week to week — so grasping for more was genuinely what they needed to survive [06:30] AImee Prasek "Money can absolutely buy relief from misery, but it doesn't buy happiness or joy with the same predictability." [07:00] The neuroscience: dopamine tracks more with anticipation of getting the thing than with actually getting it — the reward at arrival is inconsistent and can be short-lived [07:30] Most things can be taken away — a shaky foundation if you've built your identity or worth on them [08:00] Aimee's father attached his worth to signs of success — culture pushes this onto us too [09:00] His business fell apart and everything came crashing down — Aimee believes his contingent self-worth collapsed with it [09:30] Watching strangers take back the repossessed items — cars, boats, pieces of him; everything he'd staked his value on, gone in a day [10:30] Henry: a prolonged grieving right there — it's the universal human experience [11:30] Hedonic adaptation, or the hedonic treadmill: big life events shift our mood temporarily, then we return to baseline [12:30] Like Sisyphus: pushing the same rock up the hill, same outcome every time — all that effort does not create lasting change [13:30] Hedonic wellbeing (drive toward pleasure, avoidance of pain) vs. eudaimonic wellbeing (meaning, authenticity, self-acceptance, personal growth) — it's not one or the other; you don't have to give up pleasure [14:30] Socially-prescribed perfectionism added to the mix: contingencies of self-worth + hedonic treadmill + belief that others demand your perfection = perfect storm [15:00] The belief that you can and should live without pain, full of only pleasure, proving it all the time — and it is just not true [15:30] Henry: where the false-self gets born — when we learn that our worth is conditional on performance, appearance, or achievement, we hide the real self [16:00] We construct a version of ourselves we believe will be acceptable, lovable, worthy of belonging — and it is exhausting to maintain [16:30] Constant vigilance: am I saying the right thing, do I look right, am I achieving enough? Always the fear of being exposed as a fraud [17:00] The paradox: the more we invest in the false-self, the less we're actually being loved for who we are — and deep down, we know this [17:30] Donald Winnicott's work on the false-self — link in show notes; also: the Authenticity series and the episode on feeling enough as a mom [18:00] The false-self is like holding up a complex lie — cognitively and physically exhausting [18:30] The inner compass is always there underneath the false-self — that knowing of our worth is never lost; it's never too late to come back to it [19:00] Head to your Experiment in the Joy Lab Program to work on having enough; head to JoyLab.coach to access the Experiments [19:00] Closing wisdom from Lynne Twist: "Sufficiency isn't an amount at all. It is an experience, a context we generate, a declaration, a knowing that there is enough, and that we are enough." If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts! Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more . You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org . Find more mental health resources here .

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  Episode #283

  You Are Enough: The Science and Practices of Enoughness [283]

  Sep 1, 202628 min

  Experiences with stress, depression, and anxiety are often paired with feelings of not measuring up or that you're not enough. However, feeling that you're lacking in some way is not limited to a mental health diagnosis; these feelings are actually very common and, unfortunately, they make our lives smaller. We're working on our Element of Enoughness in this episode, identifying Enoughness as an inner knowing that you are enough just as you are, with acceptance of where you are at this moment, without giving up on where you're headed. We'll start by identifying some obstacles to that knowing through two powerful research frameworks. The first is Dr. Jennifer Crocker's "contingencies of self-worth." This is the idea that we stake our self-esteem more heavily on certain domains than others, and when we do, our worth rises and falls with our performance in those areas. The second framework is Drs. Paul Hewitt and Gordon Flett's three typologies of perfectionism: self-oriented (impossible standards for yourself), other-oriented (impossible standards for others), and socially-prescribed (believing others are demanding your perfection). Henry also names the common root for our feelings of not being enough: the fundamental fear of not belonging. This is the start of our series on Enoughness, so be sure to stick with us for the next episodes as we talk about and gain skills related to having enough, doing enough, knowing enough, and being enough. About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek. The podcast is best paired with the Joy Lab App . Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible). Full transcript here Sources and Notes for Our Element of Enoughness: Related Joy Lab Episodes: Ep. 268: Humility Can Be Stressful... But Worth It for Mental Health Ep. 273: How to Build Confidence (When You Don't Feel Confident Yet) Bellam, S., Curran, T., Hill, A. P., & Stoeber, J. (2025). Perfectionism and work performance: A meta-analysis. https://doi.org/10.1111/joop.12570 Carver, C. S., Lawrence, J. W., & Scheier, M. F. (1999). Self-discrepancies and affect: Incorporating the role of feared selves. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167299025007002 Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). The costly pursuit of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.131.3.392 Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). Reaping the benefits of pursuing self-esteem without the costs? Reply to Schmuck and Sheldon (2004), Sheldon et al. (2004), Pyszczynski et al. (2004), and Kernis (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.430 Crocker, J., Karpinski, A., Quinn, D. M., & Chase, S. K. (2003). When grades determine self-worth: Consequences of contingent self-worth for male and female engineering and psychology majors. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.85.3.507 Crocker, J., & Wolfe, C. T. (2001). Contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.108.3.593 Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Avoiding death or engaging life as accounts of meaning and culture: Comment on Pyszczynski et al. (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.473 Freudenberger, H. J. (1974). Staff burn-out. Journal of Social Issues, 30(1), 159–165. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1974.tb00706.x Harari, D., Swider, B. W., Bujold Steed, L., & Breidenthal, A. P. (2018). Is perfect good? A meta-analysis of perfectionism in the workplace. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000324 Hewitt, P. L., & Flett, G. L. (1991). Perfectionism in the self and social contexts: Conceptualization, assessment, and association with psychopathology. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.60.3.456 Higgins, E. T. (1987). Self-discrepancy: A theory relating self and affect. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.94.3.319 Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2005). Positive adjustment to threatening events: An organismic valuing theory of growth through adversity. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.9.3.262 Kernis, M. H. (2005). Measuring self-esteem in context: The importance of stability of self-esteem in psychological functioning. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2005.00359.x Kirkpatrick, L. A., & Ellis, B. J. (2001). An evolutionary-psychological approach to self-esteem: Multiple domains and multiple functions. In G. J. O. Fletcher & M. S. Clark (Eds.), Blackwell handbook of social psychology: Interpersonal processes (pp. 411–436). Blackwell. Leary, M. R. (2000). Sociometer theory and the pursuit of relational value: Getting to the root of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1080/14792772043000045 Maslach, C. (1981). The measurement of experienced burnout. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.4030020205 Park, L. E., & Crocker, J. (2005). Attachment styles and contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167205277030 Pyszczynski, T., Greenberg, J., Solomon, S., Arndt, J., & Schimel, J. (2004). Why do people need self-esteem? https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.435 Schaufeli, W. B., Leiter, M. P., & Maslach, C. (2009). Burnout: 35 years of research and practice. https://doi.org/10.1108/13620430910966406 Questions this episode was made for: Q: What does "you are enough" actually mean? Isn't that just an excuse to stop growing? A: Enoughness, as Joy Lab defines it, is the inner knowing that you are enough just as you are, with acceptance of where you are, without giving up on where you're headed. Enoughness is distinct from self-esteem (which rises and falls with performance) and is closer to unconditional self-worth; this episode explains the distinction and why believing you are enough actually makes you more open to genuine growth, not less. Q: Why do I feel so driven to prove myself even when I know it's exhausting and not working? A: That's the contingencies of self-worth in action. When we stake our self-esteem on certain domains, we strive or perform not to learn or grow but to prove our worth; this episode explains the mechanism, its real costs, and why loosening those contingencies is not giving up on goals but can help free yourself from letting outcomes dictate your value. Key moments: [00:00] Welcome to the brand new Element of Enoughness [00:30] Opening fact: you are enough — and the Zen teaching Henry loves: "You're perfect as you are, and you could use a little improvement" [01:00] Aimee's working definition: Enoughness is the inner knowing that you are enough just as you are, with acceptance of where you are, without giving up on where you're headed [01:30] Contentment spiked with hope — Enoughness is not a ceiling, it's a foundation [02:00] Why Enoughness is hard to define operationally — but viscerally familiar; we know what having it and lacking it feels like [03:00] Henry: this topic lives in the conversation around scarcity and abundance — how much is enough is a question we don't give enough thought to [03:30] Most of us carry on as though we don't have or aren't enough — striving, or feeling bad for what we think we lack [04:00] The rare person who feels comfortable in their own skin: receives praise but doesn't need it — and stands out for it [04:30] Four dimensions to explore: having enough, doing enough, knowing enough, and being enough [06:00] Two key frameworks for the month: contingencies of self-worth (Dr. Jennifer Crocker) and typologies of perfectionism (Drs. Hewitt and Flett) [06:30] Contingencies of self-worth: we don't stake self-esteem equally on everything — certain domains carry more of our worth [07:00] Three key claims: contingencies motivate where we put attention and effort; they influence how we react in those domains; they can lead to fragile self-esteem linked to higher depression and anxiety [07:30] Contingencies turn "I feel good about myself" into "I feel good about myself if..." [08:00] Crocker's college student study: students who tied self-worth to academic performance studied more hours — but extra studying did NOT predict a higher GPA [08:30] They were studying to prove worth, not to learn — and reported more conflict, more academic struggle, more dissatisfaction by end of freshman year [09:30] Key takeaway: you can be motivated to do well without attaching self-worth to the outcome — that's actually the more effective route [10:00] Loosening contingencies isn't surrendering goals — it's refusing to let outcomes or others' judgments dictate your value [10:30] Henry: inadequacy is closer to the truth than insecurity — the belief that we're not enough permeates almost everything [11:00] Buddhist psychology: grasping — endless grasping — as the manifestation of not-enoughness [11:30] No matter how much we get of the thing we think will fill us up, it doesn't last — this tragic gap drives anxiety and depression [12:30] Aimee: feeling inadequate shakes our sense of security and safety — evolutionary roots, we need the group to survive [13:00] Important distinction: self-esteem (rises and falls with performance), fragile self-esteem (staked on outcomes we grasp onto), and self-worth (intrinsic, not performance-dependent) [14:00] Baumeister's challenge to the self-esteem movement of the '80s and '90s — hollow self-esteem building is at best unsubstantiated, potentially harmful [14:30] Baumeister and Vohs, "Narcissism as Addiction to Esteem": chasing self-esteem through reality-detached praise creates a dopamine-like loop — feels good briefly, drops quickly, tolerance builds, need more and more [15:30] The addiction pattern: constantly chasing the next hollow boost, convinced it'll finally hold — and it never does [16:30] Henry: why do we give our lifeblood chasing what we know deep down won't give us what we want? [17:00] The fundamental human drive: to belong — to be seen, appreciated, cared about — once basic biological needs are met [17:30] The tension: deep need to belong vs. the illusion that we are separate and must go it alone [18:00] Neuroscience of belonging: newly born neurons immediately extend to connect with others — if insufficiently connected, they shrivel and die; same for us [19:00] Introduction of perfectionism typologies from Drs. Paul Hewitt and Gordon Flett [19:30] Type 1 — Self-oriented: punishing standards for yourself, intense drive to be perfect and avoid failure [19:45] Type 2 — Other-oriented: same rigid standards applied to others — hard on relationships, linked to more loneliness [20:00] Type 3 — Socially-prescribed: believing others are demanding your perfection and will judge you if you fail — most linked to depression, hopelessness, and possibly suicidal ideation [21:00] Henry: socially-prescribed perfectionism feels like the loneliest of the three — you're playing by rules you didn't design, trapped in a system you didn't agree to [21:30] All three stem from the same root: the fundamental fear of not being enough, of not belonging [22:00] Self-oriented: "If I'm not perfect, I'm not worthy of belonging" — attacking yourself to earn your own permission to exist [22:30] Other-oriented: projecting the fear outward — demanding others meet standards because that's what you believe it takes to matter [23:00] Socially-prescribed: the loneliest — responding to what you believe the world demands, even though that belief deserves to be questioned [23:30] Most of us carry all three — when we can name these patterns, we have a choice; we can loosen the grip [24:00] Aimee: all of these types come from a good place — wanting to matter, wanting others to matter — it's driven by a desire for connection [25:00] Pushback addressed: will believing you're enough make you lazy, entitled, or narcissistic? No — Enoughness is not the same as self-esteem [25:30] Enoughness is a neutral, solid ground — you can feel bad about a mistake and still feel like enough as a person [26:00] When you feel like enough: you can take criticism without your value collapsing; apologize without self-destruction; make mistakes and still belong [27:00] Joy Lab Program Experiment for Enoughness — head to JoyLab.coach [27:30] This is a collective experiment — to feel like enough, we have to offer that to others [28:00] Closing wisdom from Lao-Tzu: "When you are content to be simply yourself and don't compare or compete, everyone will respect you." If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts! Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more . You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org . Find more mental health resources here .

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  Episode #282

  Manage Energy, Not Time for Better Mood and Mental Health (encore) [282]

  Aug 26, 202626 min

  Rest and recreation are essential tools for resilience and good mental health as they help support the biological rhythms your body is already running. We'll dig into these rhythms more in this episode by breaking down three layers of the body's natural cycles: Ultradian rhythms (the short cycles within each day), circadian rhythms (24 hour cycle), and infradian rhythms (longer cycles like menstruation and seasonal changes). T he practical thread through all three is the same: manage energy, not time. Notice your rhythm and do your best to honor what your body is telling you. Note: This is an encore episode, originally aired during Joy Lab's Roots of Resilience Series (Element: Resilience). It's replaying here to close the month of Re-Creation because it goes straight to the biological foundation of why rest and recreation aren't optional extras — they are literally built into your body. As Aimee puts it in her intro: these rhythms are not something to fight. They're something to come home to. About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek. The podcast is best paired with the Joy Lab App . Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible). Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube Full transcript here Sources and Notes: Joy Lab Experiments : Take the next leap in your wellbeing journey with step-by-step practices to help you build and maintain the elements of joy in your life. Joy Lab episodes referenced: Joy Lab Podcast #13 (The Roots of Resilience) This episode is a broad overview of what we'll be talking about over the next 9 episodes. It's a really helpful summary! Roots of Resilience Series starts with episode #53: Roots of Resilience Chemistry of Calm (Dr. Emmons' book referenced in this series) The 20 Minute Break (book) Linnaeus' Flower Clock How does the brain deal with cumulative stress? A review with focus on developmental stress, HPA axis function and hippocampal structure in humans Cumulative Stress and Health Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I crash mid-afternoon and feel like I can't focus no matter how hard I try? A: That's your ultradian rhythm doing exactly what it's designed to do. This episode explains the 60-to-90-minute focus window, why pushing through leads to a steeper crash, and what a 15-to-20-minute break actually does to restore your brain's capacity. Q: Could my sleep or stress problems be connected to my hormones being out of rhythm? A: It's certainly possible. This episode walks through how cortisol fluctuates naturally across 24 hours, what happens when that pattern gets disrupted by chronic stress (including the classic 3 AM wake-up), and how protecting your sleep is the single most powerful thing you can do to help let your system rebalance itself. Key moments: [00:00] Aimee's intro to the encore: this episode closes the month of Re-Creation by grounding rest in biology — rhythms aren't optional, they're built in [01:00] Welcome — the Element of Resilience, Roots of Resilience Series, third root: aligning with nature [01:30] Henry: bio-rhythms might be the most important and most easily ignored root of resilience [02:00] Natural world runs on cycles — plants and animals fall in line naturally; humans have the choice to ignore or fight them [03:00] Inside the body: hormones, energy, focus, and mood are all directly shaped by these rhythms [03:30] Depression can be a problem with internal timing — getting out of sync with bio-rhythms; Chronobiology and body-clock research: a booming field; SAD as a familiar example of seasonal rhythm [04:30] Three rhythms to cover: ultradian (under 24 hours), circadian (24 hours), infradian (more than 24 hours) [05:00] Ultradian rhythms: most overlooked, most ignored in the typical workday; What we do instead: push through, reach for sugar or caffeine, experiment with nootropics — when the body is asking for a break [07:00] Henry: managing energy rather than time — noticing when you're fading and honoring it early before the crash [08:00] Dr. Anders Ericsson's violinist study: comparing professional soloists with good-but-not-great performers [10:00] The lesson: excellence came from tending to rhythms, not from fighting through them — more practice was possible because of better recovery [10:30] Transition to circadian rhythms — sleep is the big one here [11:30] Henry: sleep might be the best mood stabilizer available — the research is unambiguous; People with depression + sleep problems who improve their sleep double their chances of recovery [12:00] People without depression who develop sleep problems double their risk of becoming depressed [12:30] Cortisol fluctuates naturally over 24 hours — lowest during deep sleep, starts rising around 3–4 AM, peaks in morning, dips post-lunch, rises again mid-afternoon, declines through evening [13:30] The post-lunch cortisol dip: a natural signal for rest, a walk, or a nap [14:00] The HPA axis (hypothalamus, pituitary, adrenal): when this gets out of sync, depression can follow [14:30] Aimee: the 3–4 AM cortisol surge — when under stress, that's exactly when people wake up and can't get back to sleep [15:30] Mood problems can arise or worsen from fighting these natural cycles — enormous friction and energy wasted [16:00] Ways to tap into circadian rhythm: notice the animals and nature around you — dogs, chickens, birds, flowers [17:30] Light exposure: get bright light in the first 1–2 hours after waking; dim lights significantly in the evening [18:00] In winter: dawn simulator or bright light device in the morning; 15-minute session around 5 PM to help set sleep timing [20:00] Adrenal fatigue: when stress goes on long enough, adrenal glands become overtaxed — a state of profound depletion, controversial but real [20:30] Possible connection to long COVID — a pattern Henry has seen clinically [21:30] Infradian rhythms: cycles longer than 24 hours — less obvious but powerful when you become aware of them [22:00] Two key infradian rhythms for mental health: menstruation and seasonal affective disorder [22:30] Menstruation: predictable changes in mood, energy, and sleep — part of a sophisticated, elegant cycle [24:30] Seasonal depression: root cause is the change in circadian rhythm — shorter days disrupt bio-rhythms [25:00] Henry's short course on SAD: convince your body it's not the middle of winter — bright light early and late, fresh light foods, keep moving [26:00] Closing wisdom from Lao-Tzu: "Nature does not hurry. Yet everything is accomplished." If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts! Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at helpline@nami.org. Visit NAMI for more . You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org . Find more mental health resources here .

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