Episode #1206
#1,206: The Honest Truth About HR in Dentistry
Guest episode! Kiera is joined by Paul Edwards, CEO and co-founder of CEDR HR Solutions, which provides human resource support especially for dental practices. They go through a rapid fire of topics, such as coaching and accountability, worker classification, documentation and evidence (including AI!), and reporting policies. Visit CEDRSolutions.com to learn more about Paul. Episode resources: Subscribe to The Dental A-Team podcast Schedule a Practice Assessment Leave us a review Transcript: Kiera (00:00) Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera and today is a great day. I love my episodes with Paul. Paul is incredible. He is the owner and founder of CEDR. And guess what? He is somebody that I get to just pick his brain about all things HR every time he comes on the podcast. So, Paul, welcome to the show today. How are you? His Paulness (00:19) very good and I'm gonna take that introduction, that part where you said Paul is incredible. I'm gonna turn it into my ringtone and I'm gonna be insufferable for the rest of the year with that. Kiera (00:25) Yeah. His Paulness (00:27) So thank you for that. Kiera (00:29) You're welcome. I it's funny because every time people meet you and they know you're an HR, they're like, he's actually really funny and he's a good time. And he used to play in a band. And I'm like, yeah, he makes HR not feel as scary. But every time, every time I leave, everyone's like, my gosh, he scared me to death, which is good. Like I think it's a good healthy, like you're super approachable, super nice, but also like whip us into shape of like do this, don't do that. And I appreciate you continually like guiding us along the right path. His Paulness (00:55) There's a lot of moving parts when you're an employer. So it all feels a little bit scary. 'Cause soon as you get figure one thing out, then there's the next thing. You're like, no, I'm doing that wrong or or I could do it better or whatever. So yeah, you know, we try Kiera (01:07) Yeah. His Paulness (01:08) to break this down so it's understandable. Kiera (01:11) Which and I appreciate. And if you guys are not subscribed to his newsletter, he's got the best newsletter out there. Like I think you guys do an incredible job. So, Paul, if they're not, how do they get connected to your guys' newsletter? 'Cause that's one of my favorite things about you guys. His Paulness (01:21) Well, I think what you want to do is just go to the website and search for almost any form on there, but there are education forms on the website. So just go to the website and join what we kind of refer to as HR Base Camp. So if you think about base camp as a place you come back to when you're on a big hike, well, you're on a big hike as an employer. And so we are constantly sending out helpful stuff, you know, two or three times a month. We send out some pretty cool stuff to all of our base campers. That'll get you also an email that invites you to join the Facebook group, which is kinda cool 'cause you're in there with just managers and owners. and you know, it's about ten, I don't know, nine thousand people in there, something like that. So, yeah, that's the way to go there. you know, you can also subscribe to my podcast, which is what the hell just happened and we cover a lot of topics there that that are kinda fun, you know. So Kiera (02:12) I love it. Okay. I want to just get that right in at the beginning because you guys truly he's got the best newsletter, got an incredible podcast, and I think this is the stuff that keeps business owners up at night. So let's like not have that happen anymore. So, Paul, we're gonna just like rapid fire. There's His Paulness (02:27) Okay. Kiera (02:27) a few topics, and then I know you've got some case studies for us as well. So, and if you guys don't know Paul, CEDR, they are one of the top dental HR companies out there. most of our clients use them. He is one of our I do not bring a lot of people in to speak to our private groups. And Paul is one of the people that I have hand selected to come in and speak to all of our dentists in a very intimate that's not on the podcast. So it's like no recording, it doesn't get shared. He comes in and speaks to them. So, Paul, I'm excited for today. This is stuff that we'll talk publicly, but let's talk about some of these items. Coaching and accountability. I'm sure we're all doing it wrong. I'm sure I've been coaching and telling people to do this. So tell us what we can and can't do when it comes to coaching and accountability. His Paulness (03:08) you know, the thing about coaching accountability is that it starts to feel like it starts to feel like something that's punitive, like consequences. And and when it goes into that realm, it's really hard to get somebody to listen. I I I don't know about you, but when someone starts to tell me what I'm doing wrong and that's what the focus is, I get defensive. And that's just human nature. So when we t when we talk about coaching and accountability, especially with Dennis, and I know that you're gonna I think you're gonna agree with me. I while there are exceptions to the rule, and probably many of them, overwhelmingly I find that dentists do not want to have difficult conversations with their employees. They kind of avoid it. That I mean it's it's about 50% of the reason they get office managers because they're like, I want to have these conversations. I can get someone else can do it. Here's the thing that Kiera (03:55) Yeah. His Paulness (03:56) I want to say. Yes, sometimes it ends up where you have to have a really serious conversation with someone. but the Better way to go about this is for you or you and your manager when you hire someone is to set the expectation with the employee, I mean literally during onboarding, that they are going to receive feedback from you, both positive and sometimes it might feel a little negative, because you're making small corrections. So if you get in the practice of making small corrections as you go forward, you don't you you have far fewer of those big conversations with someone. And then the the ones that are frustrating, I mean the issues that you're facing with an employee, also become easier because when we're looking at someone who's late all the time, and you know, in a practice with you know, we ha always have just the right amount of employees. We never have a I don't know about you, but I never have an excessive amount of employees around, where everybody's important, you just start leaving no quarter for being late all the time. you really have to say something about look when you're even when you're only five minutes late in the morning and you tell them what the issue is, you tell them what the impact is, you explain their role in a very positive way so that you can say, Look, when you are late, we are missing you. Not you need to be here on time because when you're on time, bad things happen. And if you don't start being on time, bad Kiera (05:19) Mm-hmm. His Paulness (05:20) things are gonna happen to you. If you start with trying to enroll them in the idea that they're playing an important role. you know, part of the reason I think for goal setting is that you get to say, how are we going to get to the goal if this behavior continues? So I just want to give everybody this reminder that coaching is coaching and it doesn't always have to be corrective and it needs to you if you set an expectation and then you execute on it, you're gonna get a lot better outcomes with people when you bring them on board. And and the other the other end of coaching should always be. Can you do that? And do you need anything else from me? Like is is is the issue here me? Do we need to give you more training? What can we do to help you get there? So don't forget where that's appropriate, you'll always want to insert that in. Kiera (06:08) I think Paul on that just like piggyback, what do you do when you've had that conversation like four times? Like, Perry, we've had this, we've had this, we've had this, like, I miss you at Morning Huddle. We need to be at what His Paulness (06:20) I missed you. Kiera (06:21) point, at what point is it not like cute? It's like the I feel like it's the child that keeps throwing the rock and mom's like, Okay, let's not throw the rock, like it's gonna break a window. When His Paulness (06:28) Yep. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Yeah. Kiera (06:31) do I actually like do something about it? His Paulness (06:34) As my mom would say, when do we get to snatch a knot in him? That's what I I was just with my mom. She's eighty eight years Kiera (06:37) Ha ha ha. His Paulness (06:39) old right now. I she actually said, Son, don't make me snatch a knot in you. 'Cause I like to take her out in public, embarrass her now, and pick on her. but anyway, Kiera (06:46) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. His Paulness (06:51) look first things first, great question. I I would do wanna say that after you've had the same repetitive convert conversation with someone After the second or third time, especially if it's in close proximity in time, you know, you've already talked to them two weeks ago about something and they're doing it again or not doing it. you also want to make sure that you're making little notes in their file. That's very important. and what I found is is that if you don't hold someone to the standard, right? The standard that you're looking for, I I you're they're never going to improve. And if they're not improving, then maybe they're not the right fit for your company. And the sooner that you figure that out for them and for you, the better. And so if I'm in my third or fourth time within a month about the same thing, I'm sitting down and having a much more serious conversation with them. And in my mind, I'm I'm thinking, and sometimes I might say this to them, look, I'm not telling you that you've got to do the thing, whatever it is that we're talking about. What I'm telling you is I cannot work with someone who does or doesn't do what it is that they're that they're up to. Like, you know, I just need you to know that I, you know, I can't continue to work with you if it's going to be this way. I understand you're late. I understand that you have all these issues. I get all that. I've tried everything I can to adjust here, but I I may not be able to work with you. And you always have that standard. I need you to show up on time. There's no more there's no more getting around this. But you really need to be adding notes to their file. dating them, you need that, and and then we can move into written corrective coaching if we need to. And you know, that's a little more formal. Kiera (08:35) Awesome. His Paulness (08:36) That's them acknowledging the conversation. And look, four times in a month for the same thing, they're gonna get something in writing. That's just how it's gonna happen. If if I'm if I'm on your Kiera (08:44) Okay. His Paulness (08:45) HR team, that's what's gonna happen. Kiera (08:47) Okay, great. That's what I feel like so many people just like it needs to go on forever and ever. And I'm like, there's gotta be an end date to it. So, all right, that was a quick teaser on coaching and accountability. Okay, His Paulness (08:53) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kiera (08:58) next one worker classification. I know that's a a hot topic with dentists. They love they love this 1099. I don't want to pay taxes on them, Paul. It's a better deal for me. They're His Paulness (09:07) Yeah. It Kiera (09:09) a dentist. I don't need to have them as an associate on payroll. His Paulness (09:12) Right. Kiera (09:13) This person's just coming in to help out. I can ten ninety-nine them. His Paulness (09:14) They're only going to be here for a day. They want to be paid as a as a independent contractor. so there's a couple levels of classification. And by the way, this is one of the good reasons to go sign up for our education because we're gonna do we're gonna release a really good classification guide. And you know what? you know, we're probably gonna make it exclusively available to your folks as well, just so you know. So at some point we'll pass it over to you. look, classification, couple things. I'm not gonna put you to sleep Kiera (09:42) Thank you. His Paulness (09:45) on it because you do you actually need to kind of go through a checklist and do some stuff on your own. And we'll provide all of that. you gotta think of classification as a couple of things. First of all, there's that independent contractor conversation that we that we're always having. And for those of you who haven't heard me, I'm just gonna say this in a very definitive way. There is no hygienist on the face of the earth who qualifies either under the Department of Labor or under the IRS rules for employees. as a as an independent contractor. It does not exist. It Kiera (10:14) Nope. His Paulness (10:14) can exist. It just can't. An independent contractor cannot open his or her own practice. They have to have a dentist attached. And that's kind of the nail in the coffin, but there's a lot more. All right. When it comes to Kiera (10:25) Yeah. His Paulness (10:27) when it comes to associate doctors, in some states that same thing is true. I'm serious. They the state has such strict rules That for you to classify a general dentist and a general dental practice as a independent contractor is just wrong. It doesn't meet the Department of Labor's standards in that state. But for the most part across the country, a a a employee who's doing the main function of your business, who's performing the main function of your business, a a worker, I should have said a worker, they're an employee, not an independent contractor. So that's one part of the Kiera (11:02) Mm-hmm. His Paulness (11:03) classification. The other part of the classification com conversation has to do with whether or not I can pay an employee a fixed salary and not worry about any overtime they work, or whether or not I have to track Kiera (11:14) Mm-hmm. His Paulness (11:14) their hours and pay them. And I'm just gonna say this. If your entire team is on salary, that's okay, but you still have to track their hours and you have to pay them overtime. You can have a manager who who you don't have to track their hours and you can pay them a fixed salary. But not all managers qualify for that exemption. It's called an exemption to the standard to pay overtime. Not all managers qualify for that. The smaller your team is, the more in danger you are of not being able to classify someone as a salaried employee. So now that you're really confused, just Kiera (11:51) Mm-hmm. His Paulness (11:51) go join. You're gonna get this is the kind of information and the guides and stuff that we send out. So the the you know, the classification's a big deal 'cause we run into it every day. I mean, wh Kiera (12:02) Yeah. His Paulness (12:02) when I say run into it, we get about twelve thousand questions out of our three thousand members and every week there are four or five what we call submissions asking us about you know, they've read one of the one of our articles and they're like, I think I got this wrong. And most of the time they've gotten it wrong. and you can't rely well, Kiera (12:21) Yeah. His Paulness (12:22) you you it you gotta be careful because Kiera (12:24) It's true. His Paulness (12:25) The IRS rules for your independent contractor and the Department of Labor rules don't match up all the time. And so you have to be Kiera (12:31) Correct. His Paulness (12:31) very careful in that area. Kiera (12:34) Yeah, and Paul, I'm so glad you talked about it because like it is a while it is a full checklist. And I think sometimes we like to justify it. Sometimes we like to say like, but no, like they really do. And that's not gonna go over well. And so to I'm like, cross our T's, dot our I's, which is why Paul, we do podcasts like this and why everybody should have that checklist. Because when I learned about this, I'm like, No, they're a salaried employee. It's like you gotta you gotta check off this checklist and this checklist, and they're not like you said, they're not the exact same checklist at all. His Paulness (13:02) It it's a little complicated, Kiera (13:02) And you had to make sure both qualify for them to truly be His Paulness (13:04) but once you figure it out, you'll have all your positions and you'll know and and you'll be set. It's just that you guys and gals tend to borrow what someone else is doing. Kiera (13:13) Mm-hmm. His Paulness (13:14) Maybe it was already in the practice that you purchased, or it was in the practice that you were an associate of, so you're c you know you're copying, which is what we all do when we start a business, or you're talking to your you're talking to, you know, other other people in your industry and they're giving you HR guidance that Is not sound sometimes. Kiera (13:33) Yeah. No, I love that. And definitely sign up for that checklist. That's a brilliant one. Okay, next one. Documentation and evidence. Let's talk about that. His Paulness (13:42) we are going to be we are going to be actually doing some podcast on this where the internet does HR is what we're gonna call it. Kiera (13:56) Mm. His Paulness (13:56) I just want you guys to know that online HR advice is not something that you really want to participate in. well look let me let me Kiera (14:08) we're talking like AI, internet searches. Let's just talk about it. His Paulness (14:11) We're talking about AI, we're talking about going on Reddit, we're talking about we're talking about going into any kind of group thing for for advice and running with that. But particularly AI is a con a concern and we'll get into this a little bit more. I think every time you see me I talk about AI. Well we now have court we Kiera (14:31) You do, His Paulness (14:32) have court cases rocking it right now and and companies are getting themselves in trouble for creating employee handbooks through AI. they're getting themselves Kiera (14:39) Mm-hmm. His Paulness (14:40) in trouble for using AI to fire people. they're finding out that your chat is discoverable. and so in one case we watched the chat was really bad. The the thought process of the person who was putting the problem into the chat became exposed in court and they were basically asking it how can I break the law? I might I'm paraphrasing, but they were basically like I they were kind of telegraphing, I know what I want to do here is wrong. HR wise, tell me how I can get away with it. And so just be Kiera (15:11) no. His Paulness (15:12) careful about online advice and taking something from someone without knowing who those people are. it's you know, the context here is you're making an HR decision that is has a law that impacts it. And if you get it wrong, it can be very, very expensive. And there's no reason for it. There's no reason to go out that way and try and self-help. yourself. So just be very careful. you know, same thing. Same thing about the internet. I'll make this other point, maybe a little bit about AI. You know how if you're a subject matter expert and you see AI give an answer to the thing that you're an expert on, you will look Kiera (15:55) Mm-hmm. His Paulness (15:56) at it and you'll go, you what, that's pretty darn good and it's getting better. But here's these three or four little subtle places where it's not exactly wrong, but it's not correct. And without context, I I would be worried about just telling someone that. Versus you're asking it a question about something that you really don't have a whole lot of subject matter expertise in it. And it gives you back that wonderful, confident, same kind of answer. It's got bullet list. it's actually, if it's your AI, it's designed to please you. So it's put a little bit of stuff in there to please you. And you'll just take that hook, line, and sinker and say, this looks so well org
