Episode #96
096: Measuring Spiritual Safety with Lianna Chong & Abram Kielsmeier-Jones
What if you could actually measure how unsafe your church was? What if you could know how severe your spiritual abuse was? In this episode, Brian sits down with Lianna and Abram, co-founders of the Spiritual Safety Center, to unpack their newly peer-reviewed Spiritual Safety Survey and the science behind its scoring—plus a first look at their upcoming book, Building a Safer Church , and the training cohorts helping people move from harm to healthy, spiritually safe communities. You’ll hear about: how and why the Center and Survey were created the validation process and what it means for using the Survey how trauma scores reveal spiritual harm Guest Spotlight ✨ Lianna Chong has over a decade of experience in ministry and consulting around compassion fatigue, resilience, and psychological safety. She brings a systemic lens to organizational assessments. After watching her church divide over questions of spiritual abuse, she developed the Spiritual Safety Scale (forthcoming) to help people recognize signs of healthy and unhealthy environments. She holds a Master's of Theological Studies, an MA in Organizational Psychology, and certification in psychological safety. Abram Kielsmeier-Jones pastors a racially and economically (and personality!) diverse Christian church in the heart of Boston. He has spent more than twenty years in youth and pastoral ministry, working at small, mid-sized, and large churches in Illinois, Virginia, and Massachusetts. He studied philosophy at Wheaton College (IL) and earned his M.Div. from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, with an emphasis in Urban Ministry, using every last elective to further study Greek and Hebrew biblical texts. Together, they co-founded the Spiritual Safety Center, a nonprofit dedicated to helping church members and leaders build safe places of faith. Links & Resources Website | Lianna’s Instagram | Lianna’s Substack | Abram’s Substack preorder Building a Safer Church (coming April 2027) on Amazon | Bookshop take the Spiritual Safety Survey Apply for a Spiritual Safety Training Cohort Episode 22 : Creating and Validating a Spiritual Abuse Assessment with Lianna Chong ————— We need your help. Your gift of just $25 will make a big difference and help us continue this work. Donate today . ————— Sign up to receive our weekly Podcast Newsletter with new episodes, updates, exclusive discounts, and more! Subscribe using your favorite podcast app: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube Leave us a rating and review on Apple or on Spotify . This all helps us to grow and continue providing quality content for you and our community of listeners. ————— As an Amazon and Bookshop.org affiliate, I may make a small commission at no extra cost to you.
